Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Joseki]

I don't think Red Bull would be a better partner in terms of "respect". Honda will surely have more exposure, but Red Bull tends to praise themselves when they win and attack their engine partners when they loose. Horner said today that their engine lacks speed in Q3, imagine what he could say with the current Honda engine.

I think that a Red Bull - Honda deal would be just another bad decision that could turn well just by sheer luck (great chassis by Red Bull, great engine by Honda, an underperforming Mercedes and Ferrari and all before the new engine rules).

[HPD]

No....Wazari said many times that spec 4 was going to be big update around spa...he was talking about new pistons, cc, when in fact he did not have a clue about BAKU small update or the next SPA small update which Hasegawa confirmed to AS last week.

Mr. @Goran. Obviously... the update dates are decisions of senior officials. They can change their decision every day.
Wazari brings important information, but he is still an engineer (with all due respect). Obviously the update dates do not go through Wazari..
Then Mr. Goran, do not try to force a bad situation and enjoy the forum. Regards!

[nzjrs]

Me opposite....everything Wazari said was true but dates were completly different to his.

Wazari's dates were correct if you consider it was the idiot media and pressure from McL that renamed a sequence of small iterations as Spec 3 and thus created a Spec 4 from what, as Wazari said was more or less fast tracked after winter testing showed them they were ---. 6 months from winter testing puts true spec 3 around Spa. The last months of fixes have probably been putting out fires to fix correlation and to show they are making progress to avoid a divorce. The real test is if they have another architectural spec step post what people now call spec 4. Such a step would have to have been done in much less than 6 months, once they had fixed correlation issues. 2 major HW updates in the season would be truly impressive and show how much they are working. Whether it's possible or strategically interesting to do so is another matter.

No....Wazari said many times that spec 4 was going to be big update around spa...he was talking about new pistons, cc, when in fact he did not have a clue about BAKU small update or the next SPA small update which Hasegawa confirmed to AS last week.

Nope viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18874&p=706185#p706185

[godlameroso]

The gap last year between JB and Rosberg was approx 1.4 seconds in quali.

My mistake, true gap had Hamilton done a full out qualifying would have been more, but yeah still would have been under 2 seconds, here's hoping the gap is similar to last year.

Haha, more numbers. I know its attractive to predict numbers based on last year's numbers. The difference at Hungary was 1.3 to 1.2 in 2017 and 16, Silverstone at 2.8 and 3.1, so that would mean its a good basis. But if we look at Montreal which is a more power sensitive track, it was 1.5 last year and this year McLaren didn't get out of q2 where the gap was 1.2 but Hamilton went a whole second quicker in q3, so it was more like 1.5 vs 2 s, which is a big difference.

http://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/201 ... b458f.html

Summary:

• Honda says vibrations mostly fixed, others are more skeptical and claim that part of the problem is still there.

• Another step forward after the summer break, probably not spec 4 but part of the spec 3 update.

• Baku update added 15 BHP.

• Engine is still far of being competitive.

• Spa update focuses on turbo and MGH-K

• McLaren can only switch engines if Honda cancels the contract (ends in 2021)

• Biggest update will come in October (40 BHP)

• Not in Japan, VS or Mexico is more likely

• Spec 4 targets Renault and should close the gap to Ferrari and Mercedes within 40-50 BHP

I don't like these numbers. If Spec 4 targets Renault then they should be within 20-25 HP of Merc not 40-50.

That's fair, it wasn't until the Austria update that they closed the gap to 2016 levels. We'll know in 3 weeks.

[fellowhoodlums]

I agree that the version numbers are now just irrelevant. I don't think v4 is new, just that v2.5 became labelled v3

Appreciate this is speculation but attached article here states 15hp for Spa and 40hp after that (assume the Sept update as mentioned lots on here). We can guess but the Spa update will have been on the car for the test, between now and then it's about taking the engine apart to see if any reliability improvements are needed.

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... ract-talks

It also mentions that the Honda engine will become within 45hp of Merc/Ferrari after the updates. That's fantastic but still quite a bit to make up and will be the target over the winter, and then Merc/Ferrari won't be standing still either. Honda needs to gain the same again.

However some comments come into proper context now. Alonso's cryptic but positive remarks, the quiet acceptance by McLaren that Honda will be with them in 2018. All these comments over the last week points to Honda revealing to McLaren data from their upcoming developments which have pleased them.

***update*** - looks like same source of info as above post, beat me to it.

[etusch]

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... ract-talks

It is reported McLaren intends to make a decision about its next engine partner in September, but a few days before that, Honda's "spec 4" will apparently make its debut at Spa-Francorchamps.
Marca sports newspaper said it will feature an extra 15 hp, with another 40 hp to come after that, getting the Honda to within 45 hp of the leading Mercedes and Ferrari.
"We will see if Honda gives us another evolution after the summer. We need it," said Mercedes boss Eric Boullier.

Result of too many speculations.

[PlatinumZealot]

Not even McLaren know the horsepower numbers in race trim yet! haha

[Joseki]

If the plan is 15 hp for Spa and 40 hp for (late?) October it's a great plan.

However I'm not putting much fate into any kind of update this year, I've been burned before.

[Thunder]

True, the last 2,5 Years have taught me to believe it when i see it. Not a Second before.

[G'dayBruce]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

Let's take a step back here and remember just how bad things were just a few months ago, with the PU running horribly at the start of the season, seriously hampered due to reliability, not running in the desired rev range due to vibration and gearbox compatibility issues, and likely also somewhat more thirsty than it is now. Given all that, would it be unreasonable to suggest they've gained 50hp+ so far this season, especially in race trim?

Personally I think Honda's progress throughout the first half of the season has been pretty impressive. That doesn't detract from the fact their work over the winter was woeful (or there were some serious miscalculations) and they where terribly unprepared come Melbourne.

But that's (mostly) behind them now. So given they had valid reasons for changing the architecture for this season and, if they've only recently caught up with, or surpassed where they were at the end of last year (in power and reliability), then in theory they should start to reap the benefits as they develope the new platform, and I see no reason why we shouldn't see good progress...as we already have this season. So I'm thinking another ~50hp is quite possible for the second half of the year.

[ziggy]

It would be very interesting to read how (if) they solved the vibration issuses. It seems it wasn't just a miscalculation or a minor problem, since they had to change the architecture. Also it would be nice to know whats up with the mgu-h. It surely wasn't just a bearing that caused the problems, otherwise it would be solved a lot sooner.

Basically, as I understand from the media, Honda produced a whole new PU in season. Anybody can confirm this? New mguh, new ice architecture, new mguk and also new TC. That im my eyes isn't a evolution anymore but a whole new PU. I only hope they got their testing rigs updated, so we can see steady progress from now on. Although I'm still more that sceptical because of the past results...

[harjan]

It also mentions that the Honda engine will become within 45hp of Merc/Ferrari after the updates. That's fantastic but still quite a bit to make up and will be the target over the winter, and then Merc/Ferrari won't be standing still either. Honda needs to gain the same again.

That would mean that they're off 100 bhp now which I think is kind of right. At a 45 bhp deficit they will be +/-15-20 off Renault and so they'll really be able to mix with the Red Bulls.

The progress on reliability and fuel consumption has been enormous. Outright power is still lacking, but with a reliable base that's something they can focus on.

[Joseki]

Partially off-topic:

The new F1 game has Fernando's engine blowing up in the main trailer and every top comment on social medias, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter, it's about how realistic it is to see the Honda engine blowing up.

From a marketing prospective the whole PU adventure has been a disaster for Honda, I honestly can't think of such a big disaster in motorsport history.

True, the last 2,5 Years have taught me to believe it when i see it. Not a Second before.

Exactly, I still remember the planned big update for the Malaysian GP last year: it got postponed to 2017 because of unreliability and the 2017 still turned out to be a complete disaster. In hindsight they should have updated the engine back then.

[MrPotatoHead]

Partially off-topic:

The new F1 game has Fernando's engine blowing up in the main trailer and every top comment on social medias, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter, it's about how realistic it is to see the Honda engine blowing up.

From a marketing prospective the whole PU adventure has been a disaster for Honda, I honestly can't think of such a big disaster in motorsport history.

True, the last 2,5 Years have taught me to believe it when i see it. Not a Second before.

Exactly, I still remember the planned big update for the Malaysian GP last year: it got postponed to 2017 because of unreliability and the 2017 still turned out to be a complete disaster. In hindsight they should have updated the engine back then.

Well it depends on your idea of a marketing failure.
Everyone is talking about Honda... now obviously exposure from winning would be better haha

If Renault showed us anything it's that you can go from a terrible unreliable unit one year to a halfway decent unit the next.
Give Honda some time.

[harjan]

How come people in here are often so critical of Renault?

Renault had a disastrous 2014 pre-season, but did manage to win 3 races with a brilliant Ricciardo if I remember correctly.