Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[MrPotatoHead]

How come people in here are often so critical of Renault?

Renault had a disastrous 2014 pre-season, but did manage to win 3 races with a brilliant Ricciardo if I remember correctly.

How come Red Bull were so critical of Renault?
That should answer your question...

[Andres125sx]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

Let's take a step back here and remember just how bad things were just a few months ago, with the PU running horribly at the start of the season, seriously hampered due to reliability, not running in the desired rev range due to vibration and gearbox compatibility issues, and likely also somewhat more thirsty than it is now. Given all that, would it be unreasonable to suggest they've gained 50hp+ so far this season, especially in race trim?

Personally I think Honda's progress throughout the first half of the season has been pretty impressive. That doesn't detract from the fact their work over the winter was woeful (or there were some serious miscalculations) and they where terribly unprepared come Melbourne.

But that's (mostly) behind them now. So given they had valid reasons for changing the architecture for this season and, if they've only recently caught up with, or surpassed where they were at the end of last year (in power and reliability), then in theory they should start to reap the benefits as they develope the new platform, and I see no reason why we shouldn't see good progress...as we already have this season. So I'm thinking another ~50hp is quite possible for the second half of the year.

Good entry to the forum, and welcome!

Maybe 50hp is too optimistic both for the upgrade since the beginning of the season and for the rest of the season, but even 40 each would be awesome. Heck even 30-35 each would be nice, but I´ll not go lower than this!

[Andres125sx]

From a marketing prospective the whole PU adventure has been a disaster for Honda, I honestly can't think of such a big disaster in motorsport history.

Will you keep thinking the same if they´re WDC and WCC in 2019 and 2020 for example? This is a long term project, and long term project has always needed 3-4 seasons to succeed. That´s what it took to Mercedes (2010-2013), also to Red Bull before (2006-2009), and the same for Ferrari before (1996-1999), and neither of them had to cope with tokens, so now that Honda is token-restricted first two seasons I´d say 4-5 seasons is a pretty reasonable preparation period

But we humans can´t wait, I also become impatient frequently, posts like this one are a reminder for myself more than anything else

Exactly, I still remember the planned big update for the Malaysian GP last year: it got postponed to 2017 because of unreliability and the 2017 still turned out to be a complete disaster. In hindsight they should have updated the engine back then.

Not sure what update you´re talking about, but 2017 mod was not possible in 2016 because of the tokens. Otherwise 2017 mod would have been 2016 mod since winter tests

Past season they tried to introduce the fuel concept, but couldn´t because it was not worth with the old design, maybe that´s what you´re talking about, but that upgrade was very different to 2017 mod wich is a completely new PU designed from scratch. That´s the reason for this season problems, the new and brave design of 2017 PU

[dren]

From a marketing prospective the whole PU adventure has been a disaster for Honda, I honestly can't think of such a big disaster in motorsport history.

It's been so bad that I recently ordered a Ridgeline.

[Ericd735i]

It's been so bad that I recently ordered a Ridgeline.

+1 on the Ridgeline, I traded my F150 for one a week ago and I love it. On topic, I don't believe the Honda is still 100 hp down. Alonso got past Sainz and easily pulled out a couple seconds gap. Pace at Silverstone was reasonable too. I don't think the recent results would be there if they were still down a full 100hp.

[604gtir]

On topic, I don't believe the Honda is still 100 hp down. Alonso got past Sainz and easily pulled out a couple seconds gap. Pace at Silverstone was reasonable too. I don't think the recent results would be there if they were still down a full 100hp.

fuel efficiency means better area under the curve too.. meaning not running in a fuel save situation..

not necessarily outright peak hp imo

[th1ago]

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... &sandbox=1

Honda is trying to repair a spoiled reputation and deploy the next version of its power unit as soon as possible. McLaren will arrive right after the summer break in Spa. But will it be enough to maintain the partnership with the Japanese manufacturer?

[MrPotatoHead]

It's been so bad that I recently ordered a Ridgeline.

+1 on the Ridgeline, I traded my F150 for one a week ago and I love it. On topic, I don't believe the Honda is still 100 hp down. Alonso got past Sainz and easily pulled out a couple seconds gap. Pace at Silverstone was reasonable too. I don't think the recent results would be there if they were still down a full 100hp.

To try and even compare peak HP with the current Power Units is silly and pointless.
They are far more complex than that.

It's all relative. The Honda might not be at Mercedes level overall but it's a damn F1 engine... it's still decent.

[henry]

On topic, I don't believe the Honda is still 100 hp down. Alonso got past Sainz and easily pulled out a couple seconds gap. Pace at Silverstone was reasonable too. I don't think the recent results would be there if they were still down a full 100hp.

fuel efficiency means better area under the curve too.. meaning not running in a fuel save situation..

not necessarily outright peak hp imo

A very good point. There is much talk on the preceding pages about "peak" power, including from the esteemed Wazari. What this means nobody seems bothered to explain. I take it to mean the maximum ICE power, with the wastegate open, plus the 120kw of MGU-H. Whilst this might be an exciting number I doubt it is the most important.

If we look at Spa for instance. In qualifying I expect they will be at WOT for around 80 seconds. "Peak" power mode can be deployed for 33 seconds (4mj @ 120kw) so that leaves 57 seconds at ICE plus MGU-H. Which wouldn't be very practical.

In my mind, and I suspect yours, the most important number is "sustained" power, ICE + MGU-H. It would take 70 kw MGU-H to get WOT with full MGU-K for the whole 80 seconds. But they probably wouldn't do that but instead run some "peak" power at the beginning of straights and allow some less powerful running at the end.

But as well as qualifying we have the race, and here "sustained" power is even more important.

It is noticeable that Honda are rumoured to be bringing a new turbocharger to Spa. Perhaps they have tuned it to match the improved ICE and get a few more MGU-H kw for better performance in both qualifying and the race. "Peak" power may be unchanged but performance, the area under the curve of which you speak, will be improved.

[godlameroso]

The ideal deployment strategy is full deployment from la source, to about 100m after the marshal hut on the right, about 250m after the DRS activation zone. Then max regen through the last 300 meters of Kemmel, all through les combes and all the way to turn 10. Then 20kw deployment all the way to just before Paul Frere corner, then max deployment again until max regen for bus stop.

[ArcticWolfie]

I still can't get used to engines you can't push 100% at any given moment...

Pfff deployment strategies...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_QUn5ymRU0

[63l8qrrfy6]

I know a guy who knows a guy who has seen power delta estimations from GPS data post Hungary and the gap between honda and renault was larger than the gap between renault and merc/ferrari.

Hasn't said what the delta was though.

Maybe Wazari could corroborate ?

[henry]

The ideal deployment strategy is full deployment from la source, to about 100m after the marshal hut on the right, about 250m after the DRS activation zone. Then max regen through the last 300 meters of Kemmel, all through les combes and all the way to turn 10. Then 20kw deployment all the way to just before Paul Frere corner, then max deployment again until max regen for bus stop.

Care to say whether this is a qualy or race strategy and what full or max deployment is?

What do you mean by 20kw deployment?

[henry]

I still can't get used to engines you can't push 100% at any given moment...

Pfff deployment strategies...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_QUn5ymRU0

But they are pushing 100% and more. At the beginning of straights they are deploying lots more power than an ICE with no deployment could manage. They borrow energy from some parts of the track and deploy it when it has most effect on lap time.

[Zynerji]

I still can't get used to engines you can't push 100% at any given moment...

Pfff deployment strategies...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_QUn5ymRU0

But they are pushing 100% and more. At the beginning of straights they are deploying lots more power than an ICE with no deployment could manage. They borrow energy from some parts of the track and deploy it when it has most effect on lap time.

Sounds just like the banned suspension....