noname wrote:Phil wrote:(...) In the case of Honda, this is a problem, because there is effectively only one car. (...)
I am not buying this "lack of data" stuff. Honda and McLaren have to make their engine working in one car only. They do not have to make compromises, or deal with problems, coming from the engine being put into different packages, operated in a different way, different strategies, lubricants, coolants, maintenance, etc.
You are right: One car = one configuration = no compromises. If it were only that simple. On the other hand, more data can give you more scenarios in which the engine might fail or underperform. It's not only about just the engine/PU. It's about the packaging around that engine too. I think this was highlighted quite nicely in 2014 when we looked at Torro Rosso vs. RedBull. That Renault engine was clearly more limited around the tight packing of that RedBull than it was in the TR.
Another factor too: If Honda had supplied two teams, perhaps we wouldn't readily assume that McLaren has produced a beast of a chassis and that it's all Honda's fault for underperforming. If there were two teams, it would help understand the strenghts and the flaws of an engine better inside that entire car. It's a bit like having a team with two drivers or just one. If you only have the one driver, how do you quantify his performance? It's only through the second driver that we have some form of bar to measure both against. The same applies to some degree to the engine situation too IMO.
PhillipM wrote:Phil wrote:
It's not about creating a Mercedes beater. I think the goal should be (should have been?) to create an engine that is somewhat competitive. The most important aspect however is to show up with an engine that works, doesn't have any major flaws that hampers testing
That is exactly the wrong way to go about it, it's entirely about creating a Merc beater, the entire point of Mclaren bringing Honda in was to create a Merc beating engine, if they wanted to stick with a second rate reliable motor, they already had that in the customer Merc engine.
Creating a reliable, low power engine to develop from doesn't work, that's why the trophies are all at Merc and not Ferrari or Renault.
There are no prizes for creating a reliable engine that comes second, if they want that then Mclaren can just become a Merc customer team again.
Perhaps I should rephrase: If you set the goals too far, you will fail to even reach the easy ones. Point in case: Instead of the whole world expecting McLaren to be fighting for wins as early as 2015, they have failed to even compete within the midfield in that year. They ended 9th. In 2016 things looked a bit better finishing an impressive 6th (<- yes, that is sarcasm), which marks their 2nd worst season in over 10 years (excluding 2008 when they were disqualified, obviously).
All manufacturers are in this sport to win. Even Renault and Ferrari. They all want to have the best engine. But there are a few ways how one can go around this and try to achieve this. By going all exotic, you may actually find a better design, but how hard will it be to get it to work? Is it even possible? What if Mercedes has already found the best solution - e.g. the winning formula? What if Honda is wasting time pursuing an alternate design that may be good, but not better with the difference that they simply can't get it to work? They are already facing the challenge of having to overcome joint leadership.
Maybe Honda is on a winning path with their design. Maybe. Maybe it will take them another
N years to perfect it. The question: Will it ever work in that McLaren? Will McLaren have the chassis to make it a winning car? Will McLaren still be around with the same budget it has now?
Fighting in the midfield for a couple of years will eventually backfire. Historic pedigree and image can only get you so far. And the lack of (big) sponsors will start to hurt eventually, if it hasn't already. Just imagine for a second what will happen if Honda at some point comes to the conclusion that it has had enough and pulls the plug?
And, ultimately, all what matter is result. 