Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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wesley123
wesley123
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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autogyro wrote:Sorry but it gets me so heated.
DF comes with drag.
High DF has dominated F1 for far to long at the expense of all other technologies.
So what you are effictively are saying is that the cars should have no downforce at all and become undrivable aeroplanes(wow that sounds cool, combining 2 words that do not fit together). You forget one thing, DF and drag arent directly related to each other, a 50% cut in DF will not result in an 50% cut in drag.

Formula 1 is an high downforce formula, it has always been, it is about the team who can build the best car within the given rules, and since there are much more gains to make in aerodynamics teams focus on that.

I can understand what you are saying, you say that tewams focus too much on aerodynamics and with that downforce and body efficiency will evolve quickly.

Let me give you an example, the Group C had incredibly quick development, because alot was allowed, this development came from both engine and aero, but when teams were forced to head to an 3.5 litre engine there were less gains to get from an engine and teams focussed more on aero, what happened with that was unbelievable as those cars became quicker then the F1 cars on the track due to the enormous downforce. In the imsa it was even worse, due to the lack of an consumption limit(wich was also gone in the WSC for 1991) the teams could simply head for dowforce, drag wasnt a problem at all as they ran mostly street circuits wich require high downforce. Drag wasnt a problem due to the lack of an consumption limit, they could just go and stop more often. Too bad these cars are banned, they are great to watch, an LM lap could be done in like 2 minutes 45 if we were still running the same rules

What my point is, give more freedom on the mechanical part will reduce the need to focus on aerodynamics.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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machin
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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What my point is, give more freedom on the mechanical part will reduce the need to focus on aerodynamics.
As power absorbed by drag is proportional to speed^3 you'd have to have A LOT of mechanical freedom to be of more benefit than aerodyanamic expenditure... I doubt we'd ever have that amount of mechanical freedom so in order to make the mechanical components the biggest performance differentiator I think you've got to limit the downforce or use spec aero parts....
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Scotracer
Scotracer
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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autogyro wrote:Sorry but it gets me so heated.
DF comes with drag.
High DF has dominated F1 for far to long at the expense of all other technologies.
Because it's the fastest solution. No matter what you do with suspension or tyres, they aren't going compete with 3 tonnes of downforce in a fast corner.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

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godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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Do you think that's one of the reasons that most corners on newer tracks tend to be slow to mid speed?
Saishū kōnā

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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godlameroso wrote:Do you think that's one of the reasons that most corners on newer tracks tend to be slow to mid speed?
I have no doubts about that.
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Scotracer
Scotracer
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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I had been contemplating the 2011 regs yesterday and I came to a few predictions for the cars:

-Lower noses (with the much smaller diffuser under-body aero wont be so critical)
-More elaborate coke-bottle shape to get flow over the diffuser
-More extreme rear-wing design to gather back lost downforce
-More front wing elements but ultimately a lower profile

You can hold me to them to see how close I get :P
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godlameroso
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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Image

I predict more elaborate rear plane wings(the thing that attaches to the rear crash structure), provided the regulations allow it, as well as using as many gurney flaps as possible. Perhaps begin attaching them to the diffuser, as well as attaching winglets where the second deck of the diffuser used to be, unless it's illegal.

If I remember correctly the RB5 was almost as fast as the Brawn at the start of the season without a DDD, so I don't think it will be impossible to get some more rear downforce.
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machin
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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As my rendering capacity has increased recently I thought I'd update my F1 concept and do some rendernigs....

Image

Image

(I'm hoping this doesn't spark another load of "unsafe" comments on the canopy... -I don't remember having heard of any problems with ACO santioned sports racers which have similar....)
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strad
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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You realise they achieve that purported ability to run on the ceiling at speeds below 100mph anymore don't you?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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strad wrote:You realise they achieve that purported ability to run on the ceiling at speeds below 100mph anymore don't you?
wth? I Do not understand you.

F1 cars arent able to run upside down at those speeds now either.

BTW, it isnt allowed to double post

@machin; please no! It simply doesnt look good and you will loose way too many downforce
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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machin
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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wesley123 wrote: you will loose way too many downforce
Yep! That's the idea! However... with a spec underfloor it can be optimised to achieve reasonable downforce whilst also not affecting a following car too much... you need a spec floor to do that as I don't believe you can "guide" the teams down that route on their own.. Also a spec floor and small simple wings takes a lot of the empthasis off aero expenditure and back onto the mechanical items (KERS would of course be allowed!).
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wesley123
wesley123
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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F1 has always been an high downforce formula, why change that?

Afterall it wont change a damn thing, like it is proven since the rule change for 2009...
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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wesley123 wrote:F1 has always been an high downforce formula, why change that?

Afterall it wont change a damn thing, like it is proven since the rule change for 2009...
F1 began life with no downforce at all.

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machin
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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wesley123 wrote:Afterall it wont change a damn thing, like it is proven since the rule change for 2009...
It didn't change anything because the FIA allowed the use of the double diffusers... also if the underfloor is a spec design and the front and rear wings are dramatically reduced in size and complexity there will be no way of regaining the lost downforce....

In addition the dramatic reduction in fuel available for the GP distance will mean that teams would HAVE to reduce downforce as they simply won't have the power available to fit big wings... (as discussed elsewhere)
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Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

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machin wrote:
wesley123 wrote:Afterall it wont change a damn thing, like it is proven since the rule change for 2009...
It didn't change anything
I think it is quite a false assumption.

In addition the dramatic reduction in fuel available for the GP distance will mean that teams would HAVE to reduce downforce as they simply won't have the power available to fit big wings... (as discussed elsewhere)
Big wings doesn't mean big drag; This statement is as true as big engine=big consumption....in which case that would mean all of you who are thinking the F1 will diminish its consumption by half retaining the same power are naive.

Standard spec floor, why not. imho cleaning the flow is much better in F1 context.