2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Andres125sx]

We are talking about a Formula 1 team here...there are no excuses!!

Maybe you didn´t realize, but Mercedes is also a Formula 1 team. Main difference is they´re working on their PU much longer than Honda, so they have an easy advantage wich is VERY difficult to compensate.

Since dinosaurs existed? At the end of 2011, with their F1 team having been royally humiliated, there was too much pressure from Share holders on Daimler to pull out of F1 and you are saying, they were working on for loooooonger. Some idiots started this phrase and other are simply latching on to it, without even verifying the contextual facts. Do you forget the fact that, it was Ferrari who pushed for the 2014 regulation changes, as they were unable to beat Red Bull? Ferrari was so weak on Aero and Monty wanted the F1 to be more Mechanical and hence there was such a strong push from him. Obviously, Ferrari were the ones who were committing to 2014, more than anyone else? What was the result? It's easy to say lot of rubbish now, as an after fact because of the success that Mercedes is enjoying. But back in 2012, when the regulations were getting finalized, no one would bet a penny on Mercedes to succeed. So for once and for all, junk the excuse of "Mercedes were working loooong". By the way, even if someone works longer, success is not guaranteed. It was the quality of work that was done, not the duration that matters. Honda started their work on Hybrid PU from 2013, this is the 5th year, where are they?

Published on Thursday May 16th 2013 - Honda confirms 2015 F1 return as McLaren engine supplier

Shareholder calls on Mercedes to quit F1

Mercedes is no longer the measure of all things in the premium sector," he is quoted as saying by Die Presse.

Speich referred to "a lost decade" for Daimler, and called on the company to follow BMW's recent lead and pull out of Formula One.

His speech reportedly received applause from other shareholders.

Can you please explain to me what is the relevance of your argument explaining Mercedes didn´t want this PUs?

That was way before anyone started developing V6T PUs. Irrelevant to the discussion

And if you´re trying to convice me Honda started developing his PU at the same time than Mercedes, sorry buy I can only lol

Everybody knows Mercedes invested more than anyone else, and sooner than anyone else, on this PUs. About your argument about quality of work vs time of development, true, quality matters even more but, what happens when someone make some quality work and start that quality work sooner than anyone else? That´s Mercedes.


Some people should realize Mercedes did an awesome job, and that´s the reason everyone (not only Honda) is struggling to match their perfomance. Even Ferrari and Renault who started competing with these PUs at same time than Mercedes can´t match their perfomance, let alone Honda who is suffering the handicap of a late entry. That´s the reason they are forced to assume big risks, so reliability becomes a problem. But that´s a winning mentality, do not resign with a sub-par PU, but assume the neccessary risks to match or beat them, even if it´s painful at first stages

[PhillipM]

Therefore, gambling "all or nothing" year by year by year might not be the wisest of ideas.

Tell me, how long do you think the board of directors will keep Honda in the sport if the engine team go "You know what, this isn't working, lets just settle for rounding out the top 10 for a few years"

That's not what they're in the sport for, they tend to be in to win or leave, all that money/support you are talking about is worthless if it's not generating interest and revenue.

[the EDGE]

I'm a little confused, McLaren blew an engine on day 2, so presumably run de-tuned for the next 2 days to get some millage in, why did they not run full power at the end of day 4 for research purposes, to see if the fault was repeated or if anything else happened?

Honda say there throwing everything at this to catch -up, but personally I think there's a lot more they could do, they always seem so conservative in their approach & actions

[kasio]

https://twitter.com/piusgasso/status/837680575569887232

A bit of lap time is in detuned engine.....i guess.

do not know if its detuned, but i am certain this is not final engine. saubers are the measure for topspeed.

[Phil]

Therefore, gambling "all or nothing" year by year by year might not be the wisest of ideas.

Tell me, how long do you think the board of directors will keep Honda in the sport if the engine team go "You know what, this isn't working, lets just settle for rounding out the top 10 for a few years"

That's not what they're in the sport for, they tend to be in to win or leave, all that money/support you are talking about is worthless if it's not generating interest and revenue.

That's not what I have suggested. To finish 1st, first you have to finish. By the same token, the board can't be too pleased with their performance the past 2 seasons. Neither Renault nor Ferrari got it right the first year, but they certainly have made very big improvements to their engine to the point they are somewhat competitive. Most importantly, by building a stable platform, it also enabled their customer teams [i.e. RB] to do their part too.

And to be fair, the "gambling all or nothing" approach hasn't brought them much farther these past two seasons. In all fairness, I think I'd be more confident in either Ferrari or Renault (in the car of RedBull) to close that gap to Mercedes than I currently have it in McLaren-Honda to come up with a design that 1.) is better and 2.) works and is reliable. I might be wrong on this and I guess we will see. They might be aiming for the stars, and all credit to them, but until they actually get there, it's all just a dream.

Meanwhile, McLaren doesn't seem to be all that happy. When reading statements from Eric "We are ready to win, Honda might not be", it's hard to consider this a very healthy and constructive partnership at times... As I said though, I think there's a little more at stake for McLaren than for Honda here.

[nevill3]

I am of the opinion if a team is able to go through winter testing with absolutely no issues they have not set their targets high enough. To set conservative goals results in mediocrity. An ambitious, less conservative plan may result in a failure or two in testing but as long as it is nothing major then the team can excel. I believe Honda has set high targets and if after a few teething troubles their development pays rich dividends then they will be vindicated.

There is obviously a fine line to tread between setting demanding targets and unattainable ones, we will have to wait and see if Honda have judged it right.

I hope McLaren have designed a decent chassis and eliminated their traction issues from last year, if they have a good stable platform to start with they can and will out develop almost any other team through a full season.

This last week has not been encouraging but until the end of next week we will not know what will happen in the coming season. Fingers crossed all the pessimism will be forgotten and McLaren and Honda will take their place at the top table once again [-o<

[PhillipM]

And to be fair, the "gambling all or nothing" approach hasn't brought them much farther these past two seasons.

It worked pretty well for Mercedes.
Unlike the more conservative Ferrari and Renault...

[Phil]

Mercedes is not McLaren however. Mercedes is one single team. E.g. Not dealing with dual leadership or effectively two independent companies who have to trust in eachothers ability...

I'd also argue to what degree Mercedes gambled "all or nothing" given they also had the responsibility towards 2 customer teams.

[HPD]

[mrluke]

There is also the continual upheaval of Mclaren's culture / leadership over the last 4 seasons. I would be surprised if this has not impacted the teams ability to progress compared to RBR and Mercedes.

The video above is very interesting at about 42 seconds, the Mclaren gets a lot of wheel spin then as the revs drop before the throttle is reapplied there's a repeated popping.

[Alonso Fan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj0tlmAyVx8

You've got to love that jet engine like sound on the first flyby. Beautiful turbo (I'm guessing its the turbo)

[PhillipM]

I'd also argue to what degree Mercedes gambled "all or nothing" given they also had the responsibility towards 2 customer teams.

Split turbo, unique packaging, brand new combustion concept....and it worked.

Only now, you have to go one better to beat them, otherwise there's no point being there.

[AMG.Tzan]

Maybe you didn´t realize, but Mercedes is also a Formula 1 team. Main difference is they´re working on their PU much longer than Honda, so they have an easy advantage wich is VERY difficult to compensate.

Since dinosaurs existed? At the end of 2011, with their F1 team having been royally humiliated, there was too much pressure from Share holders on Daimler to pull out of F1 and you are saying, they were working on for loooooonger. Some idiots started this phrase and other are simply latching on to it, without even verifying the contextual facts. Do you forget the fact that, it was Ferrari who pushed for the 2014 regulation changes, as they were unable to beat Red Bull? Ferrari was so weak on Aero and Monty wanted the F1 to be more Mechanical and hence there was such a strong push from him. Obviously, Ferrari were the ones who were committing to 2014, more than anyone else? What was the result? It's easy to say lot of rubbish now, as an after fact because of the success that Mercedes is enjoying. But back in 2012, when the regulations were getting finalized, no one would bet a penny on Mercedes to succeed. So for once and for all, junk the excuse of "Mercedes were working loooong". By the way, even if someone works longer, success is not guaranteed. It was the quality of work that was done, not the duration that matters. Honda started their work on Hybrid PU from 2013, this is the 5th year, where are they?

Published on Thursday May 16th 2013 - Honda confirms 2015 F1 return as McLaren engine supplier

Shareholder calls on Mercedes to quit F1

Mercedes is no longer the measure of all things in the premium sector," he is quoted as saying by Die Presse.

Speich referred to "a lost decade" for Daimler, and called on the company to follow BMW's recent lead and pull out of Formula One.

His speech reportedly received applause from other shareholders.

Can you please explain to me what is the relevance of your argument explaining Mercedes didn´t want this PUs?

That was way before anyone started developing V6T PUs. Irrelevant to the discussion

And if you´re trying to convice me Honda started developing his PU at the same time than Mercedes, sorry buy I can only lol

Everybody knows Mercedes invested more than anyone else, and sooner than anyone else, on this PUs. About your argument about quality of work vs time of development, true, quality matters even more but, what happens when someone make some quality work and start that quality work sooner than anyone else? That´s Mercedes.


Some people should realize Mercedes did an awesome job, and that´s the reason everyone (not only Honda) is struggling to match their perfomance. Even Ferrari and Renault who started competing with these PUs at same time than Mercedes can´t match their perfomance, let alone Honda who is suffering the handicap of a late entry. That´s the reason they are forced to assume big risks, so reliability becomes a problem. But that´s a winning mentality, do not resign with a sub-par PU, but assume the neccessary risks to match or beat them, even if it´s painful at first stages

So what are the prospects for Honda until 2020 let's say...because engine rules will be V6T with open development until then! Every year Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari are going to get better and better and so the gap will never close if Honda doesn't manage anything special! So are we going to say...oooh Honda started 3 years later so it's ok??
Let's take BMW's example here! Although i know V10s were way less complex than today's PUs but they still had an awful lot of development and in 5 years time they went from 750hp to 950hp which shows you how many gains there were to be made! So BMW entered F1 in 2000...Ferrari had already 5 years of experience with V10s and Renault more than 10 years!! Still BMW managed to become top of the game at least in terms of hp by 2001...they even got some wins against the almighty Ferrari dream team!! My point here is Honda needs to become acceptable...no i don't expect them to win the WCC but at least finish inside the top 5 or even challenge for podiums!! With this kind of testing they had this week their position this year looks to be again below the top 5!! Renault seems better by now!! I would love to get my mouth shut by the first races and see them challenge the top 3 really!!

[Phil]

I'd also argue to what degree Mercedes gambled "all or nothing" given they also had the responsibility towards 2 customer teams.

Split turbo, unique packaging, brand new combustion concept....and it worked.

Only now, you have to go one better to beat them, otherwise there's no point being there.

You dont think Mercedes tried multiple configurations between settling on the split turbo configuration? I find it amusing to suggest they gambled all or nothing - if anything, to me it seemed Mercedes was the only one to show up in 2014 who seemed confident, competent and with something that worked reliably. Quite frankly, it made both Ferrari and Renault look like amateurs.

Also, what will you say this year if i.e. Redbull beat Mercedes? Maybe, just maybe, its not all down to just the PU, but also having a good car? Better aero? The right driver? You arent giving Mercedes enough credit if you are solely attributing their success to one single component.

[PhillipM]

I'm not attributing it to one component, I'm keeping the relevance to the discussion at hand, they have the best power unit on the grid, still.

Mclaren had the customer version of that power unit. They weren't happy with it.
Ergo, the only way up from there is to beat Merc at their own game. Which when, as you point out, they've had so much time and tests to develop it, means that you need to take risks to try to leapfrog them. Otherwise there was absolutely no point in Honda coming into the sport. It IS all or nothing.