2026 Drama: Alleged engine loophole

[AR3-GP]

There's also one simple fact. If the change to the test wouldn't affect Mercedes, then they won't vote no to the reg change. Voting no would prove they can't pass the new test.

So proof someone is not a witch….try to drown them…if they live, they are a witch and if they drown/die, then they are ok, ie not a witch..bravo

This is a false equivalence. In the unlikely scenario that Mercedes is not exceeding the compression ratio limit, Mercedes would have an interest in making sure that no one else can. So the only reason that Mercedes would vote down the test, is if they cannot pass it.

[AR3-GP]

And this post is on topic how and your only post in this thread, so you’ve added nothing of technical merit to this thread. I’ve showed real life examples, I’ve done some math for you all, and shared real life experience on race engine building. I’ve even shared a thesis from Ilmor Brixworth with enough dimmensions given and plan views shown that you can literally calculate combustion chamber and piston crown volumes for an engine that by almost all definitions is the same as these PU’s, and the rules outlining critical dimmensions needed to calculate all this.

Reminder: viewtopic.php?p=1329052#p1329052

Most real engineers haven’t complained and most teams just shrugged. Binotto is a real engineer but in his current role he’s a politician. The rest of these sources are inneundo from unverified sources known to be inacurrate and click bait sources by people who have showed time again to be inaccurate and don’t know what they’re talking about

Is Laurent Mekies not a "real engineer"?

Sitting alongside Mekies in the FIA press conference at the Bahrain International Circuit on the first day of the second official test, Williams boss James Vowles branded it "noise" and played down its significance.

He went on to claim it "isn't a big ticket item" in the F1 championship fight. But Mekies disagreed.

"We don't think it's noise," he quickly responded. "We think we must have clarity.

https://racingnews365.com/red-bull-reje ... unit-issue

Is Frederick Vasseur not a real engineer?

“First, we don’t have a clear decision today. I mean that it’s quite difficult, because we have to send the engine to Melbourne in two days’ time,” he told PlanetF1.com and other media in Bahrain.

“Now that it’s challenge, but overall, we have to trust the system.

“We are convinced that we will find a solution between us, and then we have to follow the process of the governance of Formula One.

“But yeah, it’s a shame, it’s more on the delay and the timing than something else.”

https://www.planetf1.com/news/fred-vass ... s-loophole

[PlatinumZealot]

I thought about this again.


As you know I was doubting the microchamber with only a hole.. I was saying it needed a valve.

I have change my mind not because of the static effect but dyanmic effect. I was arguing that the combustion gas speed would overcome even a very small hole and compress the gas in the hole. This is true. But it depends on the time scale!!

So now I agree. I think what Mercedes has done is the mini-chamber with a micro-hole.

The beauty of the micro-hole is that it obeys the geometric compression ration rule NO MATTER what temperature. It doesn't matter. THERMAL EXPANSION DOES NOT AFFECT IT! The hole will stay open! It will not close.

It works by viscous friction and possibly some accoustic reflection/standing wave effect. During combustion, or even just regular upward movement by the piston, the friction for the gas (or the pressure wave during combustion) to pass through the hole is just too high for a given time instance. So boom compression is contained only in the main chamber because F1 rpm, piston and combustion speeds are so high anyway.


In essense no matter what temperature the engine is tested at for GCR the engine will always be legal.

Very well done Mercedes.

How FIA will react is to ban tiny concave radiuses not a part of the valve system.

[SiLo]

It did take me a while to get my head around CR dropping when the materials expand. It finally clicked when I understood that the exterior dimensions expand at the same rate, but because those dimensions are bigger, internal volumes like holes actually get bigger.

For example, 100mm square with 80mm hole, 10mm walls. If it expands by 10% then you get 101mm and 80.8mm. So the geometric internal volume actually increases.

[Hoffman900]

And this post is on topic how and your only post in this thread, so you’ve added nothing of technical merit to this thread. I’ve showed real life examples, I’ve done some math for you all, and shared real life experience on race engine building. I’ve even shared a thesis from Ilmor Brixworth with enough dimmensions given and plan views shown that you can literally calculate combustion chamber and piston crown volumes for an engine that by almost all definitions is the same as these PU’s, and the rules outlining critical dimmensions needed to calculate all this.

Reminder: viewtopic.php?p=1329052#p1329052

Most real engineers haven’t complained and most teams just shrugged. Binotto is a real engineer but in his current role he’s a politician. The rest of these sources are inneundo from unverified sources known to be inacurrate and click bait sources by people who have showed time again to be inaccurate and don’t know what they’re talking about

Is Laurent Mekies not a "real engineer"?

Sitting alongside Mekies in the FIA press conference at the Bahrain International Circuit on the first day of the second official test, Williams boss James Vowles branded it "noise" and played down its significance.

He went on to claim it "isn't a big ticket item" in the F1 championship fight. But Mekies disagreed.

"We don't think it's noise," he quickly responded. "We think we must have clarity.

https://racingnews365.com/red-bull-reje ... unit-issue

Is Frederick Vasseur not a real engineer?

“First, we don’t have a clear decision today. I mean that it’s quite difficult, because we have to send the engine to Melbourne in two days’ time,” he told PlanetF1.com and other media in Bahrain.

“Now that it’s challenge, but overall, we have to trust the system.

“We are convinced that we will find a solution between us, and then we have to follow the process of the governance of Formula One.

“But yeah, it’s a shame, it’s more on the delay and the timing than something else.”

https://www.planetf1.com/news/fred-vass ... s-loophole

In their current roles, they’re politicians. Creating doubt and bad PR for a rival is a tactic to only make them look better. The fact that most of the media and fans have zero understanding of any of this is to their advantage. The fact this has lasted this many paged with so many posts by people who don’t is proof of that.

A little lesson to you as I work in the engineering world, at some level in management engineers stop becoming engineers and they become more businessmen / politicians.

You don’t even need to be an engineer to understand piston to head clearances close up in a running engine vs ambient. Most people who assemble engines aren’t.

[AR3-GP]

In their current roles, they’re politicians. Creating doubt and bad PR for a rival is a tactic to only make them look better. The fact that most of the media and fans have zero understanding of any of this is to their advantage. The fact this has lasted this many paged with so many posts by people who don’t is proof of that.

A little lesson to you as I work in the engineering world, at some level in management engineers stop becoming engineers and they become more businessmen / politicians.

You don’t even need to be an engineer to understand piston to head clearances close up in a running engine vs ambient. Most people who assemble engines aren’t.

There's no need for complex political conspiracies. Toto Wolff confessed (viewtopic.php?p=1323774#p1323774). Mercedes will not vote for the test. The turkey wants to cancel thanksgiving.

[Hoffman900]

In their current roles, they’re politicians. Creating doubt and bad PR for a rival is a tactic to only make them look better. The fact that most of the media and fans have zero understanding of any of this is to their advantage. The fact this has lasted this many paged with so many posts by people who don’t is proof of that.

A little lesson to you as I work in the engineering world, at some level in management engineers stop becoming engineers and they become more businessmen / politicians.

You don’t even need to be an engineer to understand piston to head clearances close up in a running engine vs ambient. Most people who assemble engines aren’t.

There's no need for complex political conspiracies when the simple answer is right in front of you. Toto Wolff confessed (viewtopic.php?p=1323774#p1323774). Mercedes will not vote for the test. The turkey wants to cancel thanksgiving...

You have an answer for everything, on every topic, on every thread…

[LM10]

In their current roles, they’re politicians. Creating doubt and bad PR for a rival is a tactic to only make them look better. The fact that most of the media and fans have zero understanding of any of this is to their advantage. The fact this has lasted this many paged with so many posts by people who don’t is proof of that.

A little lesson to you as I work in the engineering world, at some level in management engineers stop becoming engineers and they become more businessmen / politicians.

You don’t even need to be an engineer to understand piston to head clearances close up in a running engine vs ambient. Most people who assemble engines aren’t.

There's no need for complex political conspiracies when the simple answer is right in front of you. Toto Wolff confessed (viewtopic.php?p=1323774#p1323774). Mercedes will not vote for the test. The turkey wants to cancel thanksgiving...

You have an answer for everything, on every topic, on every thread…

And I’m glad he does because he posts quality content.

Don’t influence his motivation to post please, just because you seemingly can’t accept that the other manufacturers overcame the laws of physics and managed to stay within the given limits while Mercedes didn’t.

While I’m at it: If I understood it correctly (I think it was that article on The Race) it is claimed that others didn’t like the idea of both ambient and hot temperature measurement because they might be over 16:1 at ambient temperature (and then decrease at operating temperature). This does not make any sense at all when we consider that the measurement has since the extinction of the dinosaurs been done at ambient temperature (like you and others said). Why would the teams build their engines in such a way that it would not pass the basic test?

[SmallSoldier]

There's also one simple fact. If the change to the test wouldn't affect Mercedes, then they won't vote no to the reg change. Voting no would prove they can't pass the new test.

So proof someone is not a witch….try to drown them…if they live, they are a witch and if they drown/die, then they are ok, ie not a witch..bravo

This is a false equivalence. In the unlikely scenario that Mercedes is not exceeding the compression ratio limit, Mercedes would have an interest in making sure that no one else can. So the only reason that Mercedes would vote down the test, is if they cannot pass it.

Not really… There are several reasons why Mercedes even if they pass the CR Ratio at “Operating Temperature” may not agree to the test or change in the rules and the reason is simple, it extends the amount of time the “distraction” is in place.

“IF” Mercedes has a trick that allows them to increase the CR ratio while the engine is in operation (or under certain conditions) and one of those isn’t necessarily “temperature”… They will want that advantage / method to be in place for as long as possible and having everyone distracted with a temperature related benefit works for them, as long as everyone is full focused on it, their real trick is probably safe.

Finally, this is all “Theater”, from Mercedes posture in the matter, to the other Teams doing the same thing… Everyone wants the attention on someone else, while trying to keep eyes away from what they are doing in the grey areas.

[FittingMechanics]

If the other teams want to change the test to only be a hot test (instead of both because of at all times), I can understand Totos comment.

Why not require test at both temperatures. If other teams are/will be legal it shouldn't be an issue.

If you want only a hot test then maybe you are planning on going beyond when cold.

[AR3-GP]

So proof someone is not a witch….try to drown them…if they live, they are a witch and if they drown/die, then they are ok, ie not a witch..bravo

This is a false equivalence. In the unlikely scenario that Mercedes is not exceeding the compression ratio limit, Mercedes would have an interest in making sure that no one else can. So the only reason that Mercedes would vote down the test, is if they cannot pass it.

Not really… There are several reasons why Mercedes even if they pass the CR Ratio at “Operating Temperature” may not agree to the test or change in the rules and the reason is simple, it extends the amount of time the “distraction” is in place.

“IF” Mercedes has a trick that allows them to increase the CR ratio while the engine is in operation (or under certain conditions) and one of those isn’t necessarily “temperature”… They will want that advantage / method to be in place for as long as possible and having everyone distracted with a temperature related benefit works for them, as long as everyone is full focused on it, their real trick is probably safe.

Finally, this is all “Theater”, from Mercedes posture in the matter, to the other Teams doing the same thing… Everyone wants the attention on someone else, while trying to keep eyes away from what they are doing in the grey areas.

I don't know about anything that you have written here, but I do know what Toto Wolff said, and the message is clear. If the vote is approved, the engine will change.

Wolff told reporters the pre-season favourites would accept the rule change but questioned the way it had been brought about.

"Either we stay with the regulations like we are or the e-vote goes ahead on Friday with the proposal that came from the FIA. Both are OK for us," he said.
"We said all along that this looks like a storm in a teacup.
"It doesn't change anything for us, whether we stay like this or whether we change the new regulations. We also want to be good citizens in the sport."
Wolff said he could understand the concern if the performance numbers being put around were close to the truth.

"If you have four other PUs (power units) that are putting immense pressure on the FIA at a certain stage, what choice do we have than not to play?," he asked.
Ferrari, Audi, Red Bull and Honda are the other power unit providers, with all facing a big challenge this season as Formula One starts a new engine era.
"You've developed a component to the regulations and that's been confirmed and then everybody else gangs up and says it's illegal. The regulators are being put under pressure. Is that how it should go?," said Wolff.
"Philosophically I disagree. But that's what has happened the last 50 years in Formula One and this time we were on the receiving end. I guess the next time maybe we will be ganging up against somebody else because we believe it's not right."

https://www.reuters.com/sports/formula1 ... 026-02-19/

[mcdenife]

This is a false equivalence. In the unlikely scenario that Mercedes is not exceeding the compression ratio limit, Mercedes would have an interest in making sure that no one else can. So the only reason that Mercedes would vote down the test, is if they cannot pass it.

Not really… There are several reasons why Mercedes even if they pass the CR Ratio at “Operating Temperature” may not agree to the test or change in the rules and the reason is simple, it extends the amount of time the “distraction” is in place.

“IF” Mercedes has a trick that allows them to increase the CR ratio while the engine is in operation (or under certain conditions) and one of those isn’t necessarily “temperature”… They will want that advantage / method to be in place for as long as possible and having everyone distracted with a temperature related benefit works for them, as long as everyone is full focused on it, their real trick is probably safe.

Finally, this is all “Theater”, from Mercedes posture in the matter, to the other Teams doing the same thing… Everyone wants the attention on someone else, while trying to keep eyes away from what they are doing in the grey areas.

I don't know about anything that you have written here, but I do know what Toto Wolff said, and the message is clear. If the vote is approved, the engine will change.

Wolff told reporters the pre-season favourites would accept the rule change but questioned the way it had been brought about.

"Either we stay with the regulations like we are or the e-vote goes ahead on Friday with the proposal that came from the FIA. Both are OK for us," he said.
"We said all along that this looks like a storm in a teacup.
"It doesn't change anything for us, whether we stay like this or whether we change the new regulations. We also want to be good citizens in the sport."
Wolff said he could understand the concern if the performance numbers being put around were close to the truth.

"If you have four other PUs (power units) that are putting immense pressure on the FIA at a certain stage, what choice do we have than not to play?," he asked.
Ferrari, Audi, Red Bull and Honda are the other power unit providers, with all facing a big challenge this season as Formula One starts a new engine era.
"You've developed a component to the regulations and that's been confirmed and then everybody else gangs up and says it's illegal. The regulators are being put under pressure. Is that how it should go?," said Wolff.
"Philosophically I disagree. But that's what has happened the last 50 years in Formula One and this time we were on the receiving end. I guess the next time maybe we will be ganging up against somebody else because we believe it's not right."

https://www.reuters.com/sports/formula1 ... 026-02-19/

Not sure how that message is inferred from that. At least, that not that interpretation.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I don't know about anything that you have written here, but I do know what Toto Wolff said, and the message is clear. If the vote is approved, the engine will change.

Could you provide the specific quote where Toto says this please, because he says nothing of the sort in the quote you posted....

[Stu]

Mod hat on…

None of us KNOW what is being done, not a single one of us, but we can all postulate about ‘clever’ engineering tricks and ‘cheat devices’ IF we base our discussions on an ENGINEERING basis.
TP comments and press points are opinions, not facts, and should not be taken as such; if there is skin in the game, there is an axe to grind.
Keep the discussion civil, listen to experience; physics is a theoretical science, the modelling of which does not always correlate with reality. Engineering finds, identifies and uses the gaps between theory and practice through a process of learning through experience, intuition and experimentation. That is the essence of F1.

Further point scoring attempts WILL result in deletion (and possibly warnings).

Remember…
“There are known knowns, there are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns” the latter is the space where we can discuss the possibilities & probabilities.

[Hoffman900]

This is a false equivalence. In the unlikely scenario that Mercedes is not exceeding the compression ratio limit, Mercedes would have an interest in making sure that no one else can. So the only reason that Mercedes would vote down the test, is if they cannot pass it.

Not really… There are several reasons why Mercedes even if they pass the CR Ratio at “Operating Temperature” may not agree to the test or change in the rules and the reason is simple, it extends the amount of time the “distraction” is in place.

“IF” Mercedes has a trick that allows them to increase the CR ratio while the engine is in operation (or under certain conditions) and one of those isn’t necessarily “temperature”… They will want that advantage / method to be in place for as long as possible and having everyone distracted with a temperature related benefit works for them, as long as everyone is full focused on it, their real trick is probably safe.

Finally, this is all “Theater”, from Mercedes posture in the matter, to the other Teams doing the same thing… Everyone wants the attention on someone else, while trying to keep eyes away from what they are doing in the grey areas.

I don't know about anything that you have written here, but I do know what Toto Wolff said, and the message is clear. If the vote is approved, the engine will change.

Wolff told reporters the pre-season favourites would accept the rule change but questioned the way it had been brought about.

"Either we stay with the regulations like we are or the e-vote goes ahead on Friday with the proposal that came from the FIA. Both are OK for us," he said.
"We said all along that this looks like a storm in a teacup.
"It doesn't change anything for us, whether we stay like this or whether we change the new regulations. We also want to be good citizens in the sport."
Wolff said he could understand the concern if the performance numbers being put around were close to the truth.

"If you have four other PUs (power units) that are putting immense pressure on the FIA at a certain stage, what choice do we have than not to play?," he asked.
Ferrari, Audi, Red Bull and Honda are the other power unit providers, with all facing a big challenge this season as Formula One starts a new engine era.
"You've developed a component to the regulations and that's been confirmed and then everybody else gangs up and says it's illegal. The regulators are being put under pressure. Is that how it should go?," said Wolff.
"Philosophically I disagree. But that's what has happened the last 50 years in Formula One and this time we were on the receiving end. I guess the next time maybe we will be ganging up against somebody else because we believe it's not right."

https://www.reuters.com/sports/formula1 ... 026-02-19/

As has been pointed out to you previously, you may want to work on your reading comprehension and posting for the sake of posting, and then take note of what I and Stu said.