2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[deadhead]

LEC had the worst qualifying performance of his career in 2024 which made SAI “appear” closer to LEC than he actually is.

I don’t see any improvement with Sainz since he joined Ferrari and obviously non of the other top teams saw him as a viable alternative to whatever young talent they were after instead of hiring Sainz.

Well, TBH Sainz's performance this season was really good. He was steadily bringing good points, which was crucial for the team to have a shot at WCC. And he landed in Williams, because the top teams were filled. Merc wanted to invest in "future megastar", McLaren has 2 great drivers (even though Oscar was quite uneven this season) and that leaves RB. I just can't fathom, why they considered LAW/TSU/PER over SAI, based purely on driving. Other factors must have come into play.

On the other hand, I feel that Lewis might bring an improvement over Carlos in one aspect - fight on the track. Looking over past 4 seasons, Carlos didn't strike me as someone, who could particularly well defend or attack for position.

SAI was a “free agent” for months and non of the top teams wanted him, at least not with whatever he was demanding. If a top team wants you, they make room for you, case in point being HAM coming to Ferrari and one of the drivers being dropped to make way.

Even in his current form HAM is an improvement over SAI in every department.

SAI will always be a “mid” driver who delivers a few good races per year and that’s it. Mid to bottom of the grid team is a perfect fit for him where he can shine amongst similarly skilled drivers.

[KimiRai]

Even in his current form HAM is an improvement over SAI in every department.

We dont know that yet. That is the hope of many and Ferrari's for sure but the track holds the final verdict. And I'm rooting for Lewis in Ferrari and I think he chose the right team, yet Sainz's 2024 form was not "mid" in my opinion. Also lets not forget Sainz missed a race.

I think Lewis' performance could be quite similar, but if he indeed exceeds Sainz's 2024 then great news. Lets see how it goes.

[GrizzleBoy]

Also remember that "no top te" wanting a driver is not necessarily because they're not a good driver. Infact it can easily be the complete opposite. Especially in teams with clear and established no.1 drivers.

[JPower]

SAI will always be a “mid” driver who delivers a few good races per year and that’s it. Mid to bottom of the grid team is a perfect fit for him where he can shine amongst similarly skilled drivers.

Classifying Sainz as a "mid" driver really damages any credibility you have on this subject.

There's no "mid" driver staying a tenth off the "best qualifier on the grid" across 90 sessions.

He's been a top 5-7 driver since 2019 by most accounts which is how he found himself at Ferrari in the place. You may not like him personally but at least try to be objective.

[ScuderiaLeo]

I was really hoping the off-season wouldn't fill this thread with more Leclerc vs Sainz debates, but I guess that was too much to ask for...

Both CS & CL have significantly advanced their own view of their own capabilities over this year I feel. Each arriving at the end of race season more rounded and understanding of their own potential along with how to enact that too.

Vasseur said he's "never seen a pair of teammates so focused on what the other was doing." A few weeks ago, there was a discussion about how it's a bad thing to be so competitive with your teammate, but beating each other and picking up each other's better traits was a huge motivation for both Leclerc and Sainz. The result of this is the fantastic season they had.

I don't know how some people here are arguing Hamilton's 2024 season showed better form than Sainz. Sainz was easily in the top five drivers this year, Hamilton wasn't. Maybe there are reasons for this such as Mercedes struggling or Hamilton being demotivated, but that doesn't change the fact that Sainz was better.

Sainz's reputation suffers a bit from him being teammates with Leclerc, who is one of the best drivers of this generation. If Sainz's teammate was someone like Piastri, he would get more of his (deserved) credit.

[deadhead]

SAI will always be a “mid” driver who delivers a few good races per year and that’s it. Mid to bottom of the grid team is a perfect fit for him where he can shine amongst similarly skilled drivers.

Classifying Sainz as a "mid" driver really damages any credibility you have on this subject.

There's no "mid" driver staying a tenth off the "best qualifier on the grid" across 90 sessions.

He's been a top 5-7 driver since 2019 by most accounts which is how he found himself at Ferrari in the place. You may not like him personally but at least try to be objective.

No credibility claimed, it's just an opinion.

I don't see him as anything special. I admit he is a solid racing driver, but doesn't really belong in a Ferrari and I am glad he is being replaced with someone who does. For me his is just another Barichello.

[JPower]

SAI will always be a “mid” driver who delivers a few good races per year and that’s it. Mid to bottom of the grid team is a perfect fit for him where he can shine amongst similarly skilled drivers.

Classifying Sainz as a "mid" driver really damages any credibility you have on this subject.

There's no "mid" driver staying a tenth off the "best qualifier on the grid" across 90 sessions.

He's been a top 5-7 driver since 2019 by most accounts which is how he found himself at Ferrari in the place. You may not like him personally but at least try to be objective.

No credibility claimed, it's just an opinion.

I don't see him as anything special. I admit he is a solid racing driver, but doesn't really belong in a Ferrari and I am glad he is being replaced with someone who does. For me his is just another Barichello.

You don't have to have to find anyone special. You don't have to think they belong at Ferrari. Just know that without any criteria or basis in reality, it sounds unreasonable and foolish.

Since Schumacher, Ferrari tried to acquire an elite WDC-capable talent to anchor the team. That shouldn't discredit the rest of the drivers that helped carry the team as well. "Just another Barichello" isn't bad by any means(although Sainz was far closer to his teammate obviously). Sainz exceeded most all expectations coming into the 2021 season and turned out to be the best option for Ferrari as Vettel's replacement. Ricciardo and Bottas were the other two serious options and both flamed out in the ground effect era.

Not one person at Maranello is going to say Sainz didn't represent the team well, maximize his talent, or give 100% until the last lap with the team. I think he more than earned a seat, which is why the only reason to part ways that made sense for next season is to sign arguably the greatest driver in F1 history.

[f1316]

Classifying Sainz as a "mid" driver really damages any credibility you have on this subject.

There's no "mid" driver staying a tenth off the "best qualifier on the grid" across 90 sessions.

He's been a top 5-7 driver since 2019 by most accounts which is how he found himself at Ferrari in the place. You may not like him personally but at least try to be objective.

No credibility claimed, it's just an opinion.

I don't see him as anything special. I admit he is a solid racing driver, but doesn't really belong in a Ferrari and I am glad he is being replaced with someone who does. For me his is just another Barichello.

You don't have to have to find anyone special. You don't have to think they belong at Ferrari. Just know that without any criteria or basis in reality, it sounds unreasonable and foolish.

Since Schumacher, Ferrari tried to acquire an elite WDC-capable talent to anchor the team. That shouldn't discredit the rest of the drivers that helped carry the team as well. "Just another Barichello" isn't bad by any means(although Sainz was far closer to his teammate obviously). Sainz exceeded most all expectations coming into the 2021 season and turned out to be the best option for Ferrari as Vettel's replacement. Ricciardo and Bottas were the other two serious options and both flamed out in the ground effect era.

Not one person at Maranello is going to say Sainz didn't represent the team well, maximize his talent, or give 100% until the last lap with the team. I think he more than earned a seat, which is why the only reason to part ways that made sense for next season is to sign arguably the greatest driver in F1 history.

Here’s an interesting hypothetical - slightly off topic but tangential to the above so hopefully folks will indulge me: what would Sainz have achieved in a 2024 McLaren if he’d stayed the course there?

In 2020 he and Lando were closely matched but I think most would agree (backed up by the data) that Sainz had the edge. The prevailing narrative - especially in the British media - is that Lando made a step change and became a truly top driver. My contention would be that, while he may have improved, the nature of his 2024 errors actually shows he’s much the same driver he was in 2020 - fast but erratic and that, allied to Sainz’s own improvements, would probably mean the status quo remained in McLaren.

We’ll never know but I think of Sainz as a Button level driver who could win a WDC with the right car and against a decent but not brilliant teammate - his consistency is arguably better than Norris and I think he could well have made the most of McLaren’s good days to better effect and won the title. Similar also to Button vs Hamilton, he’s a shade behind a really mega driver on pure pace but I think he’s actually still a better bet than Lando across a full season.

[Macklaren]

On the other hand, I feel that Lewis might bring an improvement over Carlos in one aspect - fight on the track. Looking over past 4 seasons, Carlos didn't strike me as someone, who could particularly well defend or attack for position.

Unless he had LEC in front of him

[Seanspeed]

More than that in practice. With Charles out front and pulling away, the Saint/Perez clash doesn’t happen. Call that at least another 12 points for Ferrari and less for Mclaren whatever Norris gained as a result. Whether you blame strategy or the (later deemed illegal) McLaren rear wing, that was a decisive moment in the WCC, undoubtedly.

We can always play hindsight and track down 14 points or more somewhere to say we blew it, but that really ignores that no team is ever perfect throughout a year, especially on such a ludicrously long calendar year.

I think if anything, the Barcelona upgrade blip had by far the most impact on Ferrari's championship hopes. And frankly, it's a miracle we were ever really in the fight to begin with. Cuz we absolutely did NOT have the best car this year or anything really all that close. We had the fastest car on only a sparing few weekends.

Basically, I dont necessarily see it as Ferrari blowing the WCC, moreso Mclaren nearly bungling what should have been an incredibly clear cut championship win.

I agree about the Barcelona development misstep being the decisive factor but think saying "frankly, it's a miracle we were ever really in the fight to begin with ... [Ferrari] absolutely did NOT have the best car this year or anything really all that close" is a bit off-the-mark. McLaren had the best racecar on the balance of the season and Red Bull was a tale of two halves. Ferrari was there or thereabouts for most of it, and absolutely would've been deserving winners of the WCC had they managed to pull it off.

It's not that Ferrari wouldn't have been 'deserving' winners, and more that they'd been some ultra sneaky winner, more a result of the failures of others than the merits of the Ferrari car as the best.

Being 'there or there abouts' is not how you build a championship team.

[Macklaren]

In 2020 he and Lando were closely matched but I think most would agree (backed up by the data) that Sainz had the edge. The prevailing narrative - especially in the British media - is that Lando made a step change and became a truly top driver. My contention would be that, while he may have improved, the nature of his 2024 errors actually shows he’s much the same driver he was in 2020 - fast but erratic and that, allied to Sainz’s own improvements, would probably mean the status quo remained in McLaren.

I think people have short memories and are being extremely harsh on Lando who got a winning car and championship contention for the first time, in the same year, this year. Every driver has made big mistakes in their first years contending for the title. Think HAM's 2007 season. Max first won a race in 2016 and had an off-and-on winning car ever since but only won his first title in 2021(2022). If Lando had put his car in the wall in the penultimate race while on a clear pole lap or brake tested his rival (like Max did in 2021), people will be gunning for his head.

Expect a very different Lando next year, esp. since the pressure of a WCC is off

[ScuderiaLeo]

Here’s an interesting hypothetical - slightly off topic but tangential to the above so hopefully folks will indulge me: what would Sainz have achieved in a 2024 McLaren if he’d stayed the course there?

I think the only driver who could have won the WDC in the McLaren this season is Verstappen. Maybe Leclerc with some luck.

I disagree with the other person's assessment that Sainz isn't aggressive, Sainz might be one of the most aggressive drivers from the top teams. Sometimes to a fault. He would happily pull a Piastri in Monza on Norris every chance he gets (as he should!) And while Sainz is consistent in his placements, he's not very consistent in reaching his peak. He's also pretty prone to crashing. I'm not sure how this would average out in a full season of a better car.

The WCC would have have been a 100% however. If not just because Piastri is a weaker driver than Sainz so Ferrari wouldn't have been close to the WCC to be a threat

Like I said above, at least some of Sainz and Leclerc's improvements these few seasons have been because of each other. They really learned from each other and Ferrari not calming their competitiveness helped them - even if it was often frustrating for us as fans. I can't see Sainz exceling in a "Papaya rules" environment.

Expect a very different Lando next year, esp. since the pressure of a WCC is off

I don't disagree with most of your comment except why would the pressure of a WCC be off? If anything the pressure next season will be more because they're expected to be the favorites?

[PlatinumZealot]

If Ferrari gives Leclerc a title contending car in 2025 would Sainz have been a threat?

I do wonder this.

In that sense if Lewis underperforms then the dropping of Sainz would actually be good for Charles.

If Lewis performs at or equal to Carlos then less points for Leclerc until it is agreed to back Leclerc when it is apprent after a certain race that he is the lead driver. In this sense it will be about securing Lelcerc the WDC and securing the WCC.

If Lewis performs bettee than Carlos would have done, then there will be a problem of who is the "striker" for the WDC and they will pick points of each other. (assuming car has compeition with RB and Macca throughout)

[Macklaren]

I don't disagree with most of your comment except why would the pressure of a WCC be off? If anything the pressure next season will be more because they're expected to be the favorites?

This win sort of gets the "monkey off their back" that they had not won in 26 years. Obviously they will now have 9 targets on their back but easier to defend/believe once you've already done it

[aleks_ader]

This ruleset inherently hurts drivers like VES and LEC. Those guys like strong frontend. There i said the thing, but no doubt LEC is still bit over pushy when he want s to extract performance. And therefore makes bit more mistakes as later. As far i know Lewis is similar so in that sense design team will get similar feedback and at least setup on track teams will work is same directions.