Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[etusch]

It is hard to imagine how Mclaren and Red bull (Toro Rosso) could come to completely different opinions while looking at the same data and receiving the same assurances.

It could be simply that Mclaren doesn't trust Honda after the last 3 years.
Honda promises may have convinced Marko and he's no fool.

You know McLaren put time border for the first races of second half ( I believe it's just for saying "we gave them a chance" because everybody knows that it was not possible ) of the season. They already decided to split. But Redbull has no development time border for 2017 spa or monza. So it's not the same

[FW17]

Honda should have taken the sabbatical year Mclaren offered. Would have helped them in solving their issues away from the track. Maybe the process would have been faster.

What engine Mclaren would have run this year would have been their problem, same as redesigning the chassis.

[techman]

Honda should have taken the sabbatical year Mclaren offered. Would have helped them in solving their issues away from the track. Maybe the process would have been faster.

What engine Mclaren would have run this year would have been their problem, same as redesigning the chassis.

that willl make honda look bad in people eyes. iam happy honda did not choose any of mclaren proposals. maybe if next year mclaren fail to beat redbull, honda should give mclaren a proposal to take a sabbatical and sort our their overated high drag chassis before pointing fingers at manufacturers.

[Squid]

Honda should have taken the sabbatical year Mclaren offered. Would have helped them in solving their issues away from the track. Maybe the process would have been faster.

It would have solved nothing. It would have made any problems even worse. Honda is, by their own admission, suffering from correlation issues between the dyno and the track. How does one expect Honda to improve if they lost access to the track?

This idea of a "sabbatical" would be nothing more than a soft exit for Honda.

[hemichromis]

Honda should have taken the sabbatical year Mclaren offered. Would have helped them in solving their issues away from the track. Maybe the process would have been faster.

It would have solved nothing. It would have made any problems even worse. Honda is, by their own admission, suffering from correlation issues between the dyno and the track. How does one expect Honda to improve if they lost access to the track?

This idea of a "sabbatical" would be nothing more than a soft exit for Honda.

If Honda had left they could run a mule car such as a super formula car around their Suzuka track all year long.
If Honda are not in F1 they are not limited by testing bans. So there really would have been an opportunity in that.

[Del Boy]

Honda should have taken the sabbatical year Mclaren offered. Would have helped them in solving their issues away from the track. Maybe the process would have been faster.

It would have solved nothing. It would have made any problems even worse. Honda is, by their own admission, suffering from correlation issues between the dyno and the track. How does one expect Honda to improve if they lost access to the track?

This idea of a "sabbatical" would be nothing more than a soft exit for Honda.

If Honda had left they could run a mule car such as a super formula car around their Suzuka track all year long.
If Honda are not in F1 they are not limited by testing bans. So there really would have been an opportunity in that.

The FIA sporting regulations mean that if you 'Leave the sport' and test a current car/engine you can not return for 2 years. This from the 2017 regs;
Article 10.1
Testing of Current Cars (TCC) shall be defined as any track running time, not part of an Event,
in which a competitor entered in the Championship participates (or in which a third party
participates on behalf of a competitor or a supplier of a homologated power unit), using cars
which were designed and built in order to comply with the 2016, 2017 or 2018 Formula One
Technical Regulations. No competitor may sell or make available any such car of the current
year to any third party without the prior authorisation of the FIA.

[Singabule]

I think the rules changes don't point to what is being done. The new rules are being proactive in preventing such things from being done.
I think oil burning is a non-story; just a distraction from the real performance differentiators; the combustion, MGUH and deployment scheduling.

This is a reactionary move by the FIA not a proactive one. There is definitely a significant role with lubricants that some manufacturers are using in the combustion process, not just in qualifying but at all times.

At the start of season you said that there is no big deal to switch to BP fuel after developing it with mobil in the last 2 year, and now you said that the lubricant is very important for combustion. I dont get it, why you say switching is okay? As far as we knew petronas and shell cannot be exchanged with different engine, at least for full power.

[MrPotatoHead]

While McLaren had a strong showing in Singapore, as Alonso's team-mate Stoffel Vandoorne finished the race in seventh, the team expects a tough time in Malaysia this weekend due to the Sepang circuit's long straights.

"The configuration will work less in our favour, but of course we will still fight for everything," said Alonso.

"There are six races left and we are still putting all our energy in finishing every race in the best possible position we can.

"Sepang will be more difficult for us in terms of set-up since the straights require good straight-line speed and power, but this track is a mixture of a lot of different characteristics, so we'll see how much we can make up on the slower-speed corners.

"The 2017 cars will definitely be faster through there, which will surely be fun to experience, and I hope we can avoid any drama and have a solid race."

[Andres125sx]

What Marko heard from Honda is the same thing that convinced McLaren to split. I don't think we can read much into it.

McLaren was commited to the split from the start of the season. I doubt they would change their mind even if Honda showed up with a Renault-level PU in Monza.

So you think McLaren would have prefered becoming third Renault customer team better than keeping works team status with Honda if perfomance/reliability was similar???

[Andres125sx]

It is hard to imagine how Mclaren and Red bull (Toro Rosso) could come to completely different opinions while looking at the same data and receiving the same assurances.

It could be simply that Mclaren doesn't trust Honda after the last 3 years.
Honda promises may have convinced Marko and he's no fool.

He´s no fool, period, but he´s not a fool anycase. They´ve not suffered Honda development problems for three consecutive seasons, so that´s an important point as this is a business after all. McLaren tought the same at the start of the project, but after these three seasons patience may be too low to keep faith while they continue going south. OTOH Marko may accept to take some (1, 2 or even 3) painful years if that means they become a works team, as that´s VERY important for any team aiming for titles.

Basically McLaren couldn´t cope with more painful seasons, while RBR can use STR as a test bench. If Honda succed, RBR will become RBR-Honda works team, wich would be awesome for RBR. If Honda does not succed, they only suffered a poor PU on STR while the main team didn´t suffer any inconvenient, so it´s an opportunity to improve while not assuming any big risk. Also, Honda now has some experience, so the process should never be as painful as it´s been for McLaren.

It´s a golden oportunity for RBR, they must be grateful to McLaren running out of patience

[Squid]

What Marko heard from Honda is the same thing that convinced McLaren to split. I don't think we can read much into it.

McLaren was commited to the split from the start of the season. I doubt they would change their mind even if Honda showed up with a Renault-level PU in Monza.

So you think McLaren would have prefered becoming third Renault customer team better than keeping works team status with Honda if perfomance/reliability was similar???

Zak Brown doesn't appear to mind not being a works team. After all, the notion that "only works teams can win championships" came from Ron Dennis, and as we know, McLaren is busy at work eliminating every last scent of Ron Dennis from the team.

And I'm talking about future potential, not what they have to offer right now. The argument here is that McLaren knew what Honda would bring in the future and left them anyway. What I'm saying is that they might have left despite of it, not because of it. Why? Because you can't seriously expect to act like McLaren has acted all year long and still maintain a partnership. Even Honda's management got sick of dealing with McLaren's public posturing. McLaren was running a destructive campaign to facilitate the split, and they were quite effective at it. You don't do that unless you are commited.

[Singabule]

Indeed

[gofast182]

A few points based on the last few pages:

Given known correlation issues and Honda's publicly stated goal of being as high as third next year, IMHO they would be utterly stupid not to get Spec. 4, or whatever they end up calling it, in a car on-track this year. Edit: not to mention F1 pushing ahead with the 3 engine limit next year despite virtually no one wanting it.

Part of McLaren's decision is the history and perhaps a trust factor. Let's say the development pipeline between Honda and Renault showed parity next year with both making gains, I think McLaren's goal was simply to get out of the situation. The crucial thing on the Honda side, for STR, is the engine concept will be carried over so I think at a minimum the reliability will become very good with a power boost over the 2017 Renault level an added bonus.

As for the rumored future with RBR, and in light of the Aston Martin partnership, maybe they are the RBR team, with an Aston Martin chassis, and a Honda engine (assuming Honda won't let their engine be re-branded)?

[harjan]

What’s the evidence Honda will go for spec 4?

Doesn’t make any sense. They picked a different route and developed on this.

[etusch]

It is hard to imagine how Mclaren and Red bull (Toro Rosso) could come to completely different opinions while looking at the same data and receiving the same assurances.

It could be simply that Mclaren doesn't trust Honda after the last 3 years.
Honda promises may have convinced Marko and he's no fool.

He´s no fool, period, but he´s not a fool anycase. They´ve not suffered Honda development problems for three consecutive seasons, so that´s an important point as this is a business after all. McLaren tought the same at the start of the project, but after these three seasons patience may be too low to keep faith while they continue going south. OTOH Marko may accept to take some (1, 2 or even 3) painful years if that means they become a works team, as that´s VERY important for any team aiming for titles.

Basically McLaren couldn´t cope with more painful seasons, while RBR can use STR as a test bench. If Honda succed, RBR will become RBR-Honda works team, wich would be awesome for RBR. If Honda does not succed, they only suffered a poor PU on STR while the main team didn´t suffer any inconvenient, so it´s an opportunity to improve while not assuming any big risk. Also, Honda now has some experience, so the process should never be as painful as it´s been for McLaren.

It´s a golden oportunity for RBR, they must be grateful to McLaren running out of patience

RB has no option . They must use Honda PU at 2019. So they also push Honda to develop but Honda already pushing way of they do things.