Silly Season 2013/14

[turbof1]

No, still rumor. Nobody is going to negotiate at this point, too many mixed emotions now.

[FoxHound]

You simply do not walk away from a winning car as an F1 driver. They never do.

Hamilton? Schumacher? Hakkinen?

[mika vs michael]

I will revert my initial thought-post...If vettel wins again the WDC he may need a fresh challenge but the same applies for Redbull especially after Malaysia. In Malaysia Vettel showed who is the real boss in Redbull...he said to Horner, Newey "I own you"...I think maybe such an attitude won't be well accepted by Mateschitz. They may tell mr Vettel...we can win the WDC with whatever driver...so they sack Vettel...hire Raikkonen and keep Webber...

Webber is a very good No2. He is fast enough to push the no1 but very soft and managable in the mental game. Webber is not made out of concrete...he is not like vettel, hamilton raikkonen or alonso. The same applies for Massa. It could be catastrophic to have Vettel and Raikkonen in the same car. Too much inner competition may harm in the end the WDC prospects...
So Vettel out, Raikkonen in Webber in...

[turbof1]

I will revert my initial thought-post...If vettel wins again the WDC he may need a fresh challenge but the same applies for Redbull especially after Malaysia. In Malaysia Vettel showed who is the real boss in Redbull...he said to Horner, Newey "I own you"...I think maybe such an attitude won't be well accepted by Mateschitz. They may tell mr Vettel...we can win the WDC with whatever driver...so they sack Vettel...hire Raikkonen and keep Webber...

Webber is a very good No2. He is fast enough to push the no1 but very soft and managable in the mental game. Webber is not made out of concrete...he is not like vettel, hamilton raikkonen or alonso. The same applies for Massa. It could be catastrophic to have Vettel and Raikkonen in the same car. Too much inner competition may harm in the end the WDC prospects...
So Vettel out, Raikkonen in Webber in...

Or more plausible: they sack webber because it's slowly becoming impossible for the 2 to work together, sack horner for being vettel's b*tch, and keep vettel because they'll never show a triple world champion the door.

I also don't think a raikkonen-vettel combination will be so much of a problem. Remember, in 2008 Raikkonen had to be massa's backbone. Never complained about it. Of course, if raikkonen is in a much better position then vettel, vettel might be acting mr. Spoiled Brat again.

[Websta]

I'm not convinced by the "two roosters in the same henhouse" being a bad thing in F1.

Why is it bad? I assume the argument is that there won't be one driver that continually out-races the other and thus gets the lion's share of the team's points haul (and thus gives the team a better chance of bagging the WDC). This doesn't sit well with me - the big differences in points between finishing positions are the podium places, so this issue really would only arise if the two drivers were alternatively finishing first and second at each race, or second/third etc. And if your two drivers are both regularly finishing in high points scoring positions, then the fight for the WDC is probably going to be between them anyway. So what is the team losing in this situation?

They certainly would not be losing in terms of the constructors championship either if the two drivers are constantly fighting each other for high points finishes. So no problems there.

"But having two ace drivers fight each other for the WDC causes a rift in the team! Just look at Alonso/Hamilton and Senna/Prost," What about Webber vs Vettel or Barrichello vs Button at Brawn and Schumi at Ferrari? "Number 2" drivers in dominant teams can also, and often will, lead to fiery intra-team friction.

So, then why don't all top teams try to sign the best drivers? Some of them do - McLaren signed hot-property Jenson Button to partner Hamilton in 2010, possibly to improve their chances against emerging powerhouse RBR.

The number 1 ace driver paired with a fast, tier-2 driver like Vettel and Webber at RBR can still be very successful, as we have seen, but I can see a pairing of ace drivers working well together as well.

So RBR should strongly consider pairing Raikkonen with Vettel in my opinion. My 2 cents

[WhiteBlue]

It depends on the mentality of the drivers. Weber never respected Vettel and the same was true for Alonso and Hamilton. Button and Hamilton worked because the drivers had a lot of respect for each other.

Kimi would respect any other driver if he shows a decent behaviour on track. He is very level headed and he would deal from a position of personal strength and performance with any attitude of a fast rookie. He would probably have no problem like Webber had from the start with Vettel or Alonso had with Hamilton.

I equally think that Kimi will not have a problem to race Vettel who is a triple world champ in the same team. He will simply rely on his own strength and if that is not enough to beat him he will not create any dramas. Kimi had a long career with many opportunities that were spoiled by bad luck and unreliability. He also had the good luck in 2007. So he knows how to deal with adversity.

I also believe that he will let them know in no uncertain words if he thinks the team makes unacceptable calls to him. IMO if Kimi had been in Webber's place in Turkey 2010 and he felt he disagreed with the team strategy he would have told them openly over the radio to stuff it. Alonso used the media on Monday to get back on McLaren and Webber simply does his own thing making grand statements afterwards like Silverstone 2010.

So considering all aspects I think that a pairing of Seb and Kimi would work and that the drivers would respect and trust each other. They would probably race each other with a team mate bonus if they meet on track which is what you want to see as a team principal.

[myurr]

Kimi wouldn't go to Red Bull unless it was on equal terms, and is that something Vettel (the real team boss at the moment) would allow? Next year he'll be losing the exhaust blown diffuser, and whilst I'm sure they'll find some other use for the exhaust gasses with a turbo in the way and further limitations on placement the effects will be diminished. I'm sure you'll say that Vettel will win anyway, and maybe he will. But it's well documented that he's adapted his technique to the peculiarities of the blown diffuser in a way that others haven't been able to (or haven't had the car to), and that during the periods where these effects were reduced then Webber has been much closer to Vettel's performances (or beaten him). The playing field next year should be a little more level in that regard.

If Kimi were to join on an equal footing then I could see him causing some real problems for Vettel. And whether or not Kimi is a stable character won't matter if it's Vettel who is losing his head in that situation. Can you imagine his reaction if Kimi were to join the team and then out perform him? I doubt it would be pretty.

But I can't see Kimi wanting to have to put up with the politicing and bullsh:t that is standard fare at Red Bull no matter how good the car ends up being. You have a team where one driver outranks the team principle, who is also undermined by a special adviser, with that adviser liking to brief the media with his own agenda, and then with a remote owner who sweeps in every now and then to lay down his version of the law. Doesn't sound like a Kimi friendly environment to me.

[FoxHound]

It makes no sense to say that Kimi/Vettel partnership would work any better than the current pairing.

Kimi is a better driver than Webber we all agree(I would hope). How would Vettel react when the pressure is ratcheted up a few notches?
With Kimi in that team, Vettel would be exposed on a few fronts. Firstly, Kimi would not play second fiddle, EVER. If the team played a stunt as they did removing hardware from Webber's car to fix onto Vettel's, Kimi would be on his bike of his own accord. Play ball or don't play at all.
Secondly, the whole psyche of the team would be refreshed from having a number one and two driver(Webber's own words, and the teams own actions) to that of having 2 genuine contenders.

When there is genuine pressure from within a team, I think we would see even more incidents and even more PR disasters for Red Bull. Webber offer's no threat to Vettel, and Vettel can carry on collecting trophies. It works for Vettel, it works for Red Bull and it even works for Webber.

Upset this apple cart by putting a Great White Shark in Raikkonen next to Vettel, you upset this balance where the team's primary focus is Vettel.
I will bet my mortgage that Vettel will have a massive say in who takes the number 2 seat at Red Bull, and I can bet that it will be an STR protege that will follow orders and do as he is told rather than have a maverick like Raikkonen who has the potential to dismantle Vettel.

Take your pick from Ricciardo, Vergne or maybe even Buemi. Da costa will then be ushered into STR and so the cycle continues.

[WhiteBlue]

I'm tired of reading all this anti Vettel and anti Red Bull propaganda. So I will not go into details to show my esteemed ante poster the errors of his ways. It would only serve to attract more of the same.

On topic I will just say that Kimi is held in high regard by Red Bull and that he enjoyed Red Bull sponsorship during his rally intermezzo. There will be no Ferrari style #1 driver policies at Red Bull as long as the team is owned by Dietrich Mateschitz. That should be clear from past experience. 2014 could be a good opportunity for Kimi to switch to the Renault powered team with the higher budget. He is totally unconcerned who ever is his team mate. He told us many times. If he thinks he gets the better car and better deal from Red Bull he will change.

I also think that Seb would have no problems to trust and respect Kimi. Seb has matured nicely and he knows by now whom to trust and when he needs to fight.

[bhall]

There will be no Ferrari style #1 driver policies at Red Bull as long as the team is owned by Dietrich Mateschitz. That should be clear from past experience.

[...]

I also think that Seb would have no problems to trust and respect Kimi. Seb has matured nicely and he knows by now whom to trust and when he needs to fight.

[Websta]

If Raikkonen were to join RBR and beat Vettel, sure it wouldn't be pretty, but why should the team really care all that much? They have had massive success with Vettel, they couldn't have gotten a better return on their young driver program thing than they have gotten. It is likely that Vettel will move on to another team at some point, must RBR tie their hands behind their back until then? Going into 2014, they will want a strong driver line up, and Raikkonen would certainly offer them that should Webber not sign on again.

This idea that they mustn't sign a driver who could challenge him too much is ridiculous to me, as per my other post. Signing Raikkonen would also weaken their rivals Lotus, quite significantly.

[MOWOG]

Porsche have categorically denied they have signed a 5 year deal with Webber. But they have NOT categorically denied that they have signed either a one, two, three or four year deal with him!

[Gridlock]

This myth that Fernando and Mark are bestest friends forever (and more specifically that this affects the driver market) needs to die - when it was put to him, Webber said he'd never even eaten socially with Alonso, this was about 8 months ago.

Well...

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/ ... 5000833024

Damned if you don't tweet it (it becomes somebody's exclusive), damned if you do. What a strange life they lead. But at least they got to mess with fans heads....

[CHT]

It depends on the mentality of the drivers. Weber never respected Vettel and the same was true for Alonso and Hamilton. Button and Hamilton worked because the drivers had a lot of respect for each other.

Kimi would respect any other driver if he shows a decent behaviour on track. He is very level headed and he would deal from a position of personal strength and performance with any attitude of a fast rookie. He would probably have no problem like Webber had from the start with Vettel or Alonso had with Hamilton.

I equally think that Kimi will not have a problem to race Vettel who is a triple world champ in the same team. He will simply rely on his own strength and if that is not enough to beat him he will not create any dramas. Kimi had a long career with many opportunities that were spoiled by bad luck and unreliability. He also had the good luck in 2007. So he knows how to deal with adversity.

I also believe that he will let them know in no uncertain words if he thinks the team makes unacceptable calls to him. IMO if Kimi had been in Webber's place in Turkey 2010 and he felt he disagreed with the team strategy he would have told them openly over the radio to stuff it. Alonso used the media on Monday to get back on McLaren and Webber simply does his own thing making grand statements afterwards like Silverstone 2010.

So considering all aspects I think that a pairing of Seb and Kimi would work and that the drivers would respect and trust each other. They would probably race each other with a team mate bonus if they meet on track which is what you want to see as a team principal.

I agree with your assessment on the pairing and I think it will be really good opportunity to put Vettel against another WDC in the same car.

[CHT]

Its funny to read some of the anti vettel redbull comments here

1) Status quo - Vettel won WDC because RBs are the quickest car on the grid, and Webber is marginalized by Vettel No. 1 status. Vettel cannot succeed with another team etc.

2) Pairing Vettel with another WDC at RBR - Thats not possible and it wont work because Vettel doesnt like it.

Pretty obvious to some, whatever happens, Vettel and RBR will always be 2nd grade or 2nd class champions.