Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Dimi]

Well this year has certainly been a "unique" one. I wonder if maybe Wazari could share any insights he may have on the general mood at Honda and their confidence in their 2018 PU. The first time running a second iteration of a current engine layout, surely the mood for 2018 is a good one?

The mood at Honda is very upbeat according to my nephew. I am no longer at Sakura. I hear there is a sense of relief and great optimism for the upcoming season. After the season is over and the marriage is finally done, I will post about what I feel are the mistakes made by both parties.

Oh, really, not again!

My inbox has been flooded. Sorry can not answer you all but seems centered on a few things.

...
4. I am still excited about this season. I am optimistic, anxious and happy with the new PU. Spec 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 and 1.1.

Best wishes everyone.

We have the saying, keisan wa kantan, tsukuri wa muzukashii; calculations are easy, implementation is complicated.
...
I think the other teams are much closer to running at full deployment throughout the race and McLaren is nowhere close to it. I do know engineers at Honda are very pleased with their latest ICE test results and feel the ICE's power output lacks nothing to the other teams.

Its different this time.. like getting divorce from a bitchy wife...

[techman]

Pretty pleased about the divorce, hope honda can get redbull and thats the real benchmark chassis every manufacturer want to run and not an overated high drag chassis honda ran these few years

[3jawchuck]

The mood at Honda is very upbeat according to my nephew. I am no longer at Sakura. I hear there is a sense of relief and great optimism for the upcoming season. After the season is over and the marriage is finally done, I will post about what I feel are the mistakes made by both parties.

Oh, really, not again!

My inbox has been flooded. Sorry can not answer you all but seems centered on a few things.
...
4. I am still excited about this season. I am optimistic, anxious and happy with the new PU. Spec 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 and 1.1.
Best wishes everyone.

We have the saying, keisan wa kantan, tsukuri wa muzukashii; calculations are easy, implementation is complicated.
...
I think the other teams are much closer to running at full deployment throughout the race and McLaren is nowhere close to it. I do know engineers at Honda are very pleased with their latest ICE test results and feel the ICE's power output lacks nothing to the other teams.

Its different this time.. like getting divorce from a bitchy wife...

This time it will be different because spec 4 is the gold standard Honda engine. It doesn't matter that they are still only running with one team, not going to be running the new units until pre-season, going to have to make new compromises packaging their engine with a new team and running another new design. No, this time it will be different.

More like an abused lover sticking to the same type of partner than a divorce from a crazy wife.

We all hope they will turn it around. However, after 3 years of the same tripe, same Honda rhetoric, same Wazari "inside information", same fanboy bullishness. Lets hope and above all, lets see.

[godlameroso]

Why wouldn't they turn it around, for the first time in this engine formula Honda has a chance to do things their own way, and not have to compromise. The only thing holding them back is what Wazari has said, and what I came to realize as well, they cannot deploy as much electrical energy as the others. It's so bloody obvious too, the MGU-H has been the most failed part, and not just from Honda, everyone has had multiple turbo failures save Mercedes. Is it any wonder then that Mercedes has the most power output, as well as the most reliable MGU-H out of all the other manufacturers?

Of course there will be the people that claim I'm speculating, then again you're also speculating it's daylight when the sun is out.

As for what they can achieve next year, who knows, if they get their deployment in order they will have a very strong midfield car. Toro Rosso has some good people, and they've achieved a lot with the scraps Red Bull throws their way, it'll be interesting to see what they can do with some more backing. I expect Honda to take a similar step forward from 2015 to 2016 at the very least as far as ERS deployment, with more to come through in season developments.

[godlameroso]

The casing the houses the shaft is part of the block and time to swap the MGU-H would be extremely time consuming. Don't ask me why it was designed this way. Spec 4 is not.

Also - if the Spec 3 vs Spec 4 units are really that much different it makes more sense why the "Spec 4" unit was never run in the car this year.

I think it should be given a different name though, Spec 3 vs Spec 4 sounds like just another iteration of the same engine. If the Engine Block is different then it should be given a completely different engine designation.

They are quite different and I will go into greater detail after the season is over. I will say this, the current Spec 3.XXX series PU is a mish-mash of HRD, McLaren (MAT), outside consultants and internal consultants. IMO this will never work. Too many cooks in the kitchen. The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure. The Spec 4 PU has a different block, internals, MGU-H, etc. The Spec 4 heads will mate to the current PU.

I'm guessing this means they're going to a more standard layout, or will they keep the Mercedes style split turbo? The one interesting thing about these power units is that after 4 years there are still a lot of lessons to be learned, and a lot of potential left to unlock. The learning curve is so steep that even when you make big progress it looks like you went no where. However after a lot of persistent small steps one can travel a great distance.

[PlatinumZealot]

Why wouldn't they turn it around, for the first time in this engine formula Honda has a chance to do things their own way, and not have to compromise. The only thing holding them back is what Wazari has said, and what I came to realize as well, they cannot deploy as much electrical energy as the others. It's so bloody obvious too, the MGU-H has been the most failed part, and not just from Honda, everyone has had multiple turbo failures save Mercedes. Is it any wonder then that Mercedes has the most power output, as well as the most reliable MGU-H out of all the other manufacturers?

Of course there will be the people that claim I'm speculating, then again you're also speculating it's daylight when the sun is out.

As for what they can achieve next year, who knows, if they get their deployment in order they will have a very strong midfield car. Toro Rosso has some good people, and they've achieved a lot with the scraps Red Bull throws their way, it'll be interesting to see what they can do with some more backing. I expect Honda to take a similar step forward from 2015 to 2016 at the very least as far as ERS deployment, with more to come through in season developments.

There is actually a way to see the deployment on the live feeds. There is a battery charge icon on the dashboard graphic that sometimes is shown simultaneously for two cars. In the Brazil race when Lewis was chasing Kimi you could see that the Ferrari was charging and deploying just about the same as Mercedes over those four laps. And these were full power laps accorring to Toto. Very valuable information if you ask me. If we could get an onboard for Alonso in the race we might be able to sync the videos and compare the deployment.

[sosic2121]

There is actually a way to see the deployment on the live feeds. There is a battery charge icon on the dashboard graphic that sometimes is shown simultaneously for two cars. In the Brazil race when Lewis was chasing Kimi you could see that the Ferrari was charging and deploying just about the same as Mercedes over those four laps. And these were full power laps accorring to Toto. Very valuable information if you ask me. If we could get an onboard for Alonso in the race we might be able to sync the videos and compare the deployment.

Have you seen ERS graphics during Mexican GP? Mercedes seemed to deploy less than Ferrari and Renault engines!?

[PlatinumZealot]

Yeah i saw it but wasnt paying attention to it because of the title fight. Possibly rear tyre limitation in Mexico for Mecedes? Or maybe they already had enough ice power? Surely interesting.

[stevesingo]

Or they have enough recovery through MGU-H that they don't need to deplete the ES to maintain full 120kW assist from the MGU-K?

[Chicane]

The biggest limiting factor for Honda would yet again be the lack of track testing as by their own admission their dynos are not sophisticated enough to replicate the loads and stresses the various components are subjected under the G-forces on track. It is actually not even a secret that the Spec-4 has been on bench testing for months now. This was supposed to debut in Mexico according to Honda's internal timelines but never made it and it is not just because of the divorce rather Honda's lack of confidence in the reliability of the spec despite being on the bench forever. In Preseason testing they will have only Toro Rosso to rely on engine mileage and data collection while all other manufacturers will have three teams each munching miles.

MGU-H have been subjected to premature failures mainly due to cooling issues. Next year each MGU-H has to do 7 races and we still do not know if they have found a permanent and reliable fix as Honda have yet to run an MGU-H for more than two races this season. Alonso ran old PU on Friday in Brazil and a new one from Saturday onwards. The MGU-H is where the technical superiority of Mercedes and Ferrari lies. I agree with the general sentiment that the ICE is no longer the major performance differentiator rather the need for recovering and deploying electrical energy via MGU-H is where Honda lags significantly.

[PhillipM]

Yeah i saw it but wasnt paying attention to it because of the title fight. Possibly rear tyre limitation in Mexico for Mecedes? Or maybe they already had enough ice power? Surely interesting.

Off topic but just to address this (continue it in the merc thread maybe) it could very well have been a tyre limit - several of the exit shots from the corners saw a lot of carcass oscillation on the Merc at the rear under power.

[hurril]

There is actually a way to see the deployment on the live feeds. There is a battery charge icon on the dashboard graphic that sometimes is shown simultaneously for two cars. In the Brazil race when Lewis was chasing Kimi you could see that the Ferrari was charging and deploying just about the same as Mercedes over those four laps. And these were full power laps accorring to Toto. Very valuable information if you ask me. If we could get an onboard for Alonso in the race we might be able to sync the videos and compare the deployment.

Have you seen ERS graphics during Mexican GP? Mercedes seemed to deploy less than Ferrari and Renault engines!?

Are you referring to that primitive HUD-graphics that is sometimes displayed? I don't think those are worth that much.

[godlameroso]

The biggest limiting factor for Honda would yet again be the lack of track testing as by their own admission their dynos are not sophisticated enough to replicate the loads and stresses the various components are subjected under the G-forces on track. It is actually not even a secret that the Spec-4 has been on bench testing for months now. This was supposed to debut in Mexico according to Honda's internal timelines but never made it and it is not just because of the divorce rather Honda's lack of confidence in the reliability of the spec despite being on the bench forever. In Preseason testing they will have only Toro Rosso to rely on engine mileage and data collection while all other manufacturers will have three teams each munching miles.

MGU-H have been subjected to premature failures mainly due to cooling issues. Next year each MGU-H has to do 7 races and we still do not know if they have found a permanent and reliable fix as Honda have yet to run an MGU-H for more than two races this season. Alonso ran old PU on Friday in Brazil and a new one from Saturday onwards. The MGU-H is where the technical superiority of Mercedes and Ferrari lies. I agree with the general sentiment that the ICE is no longer the major performance differentiator rather the need for recovering and deploying electrical energy via MGU-H is where Honda lags significantly.

While true in a sense, it's combustion that is ultimately driving the MGU-H, so it's very much related and highlights the complexity of the power unit.

To tailor combustion to straddle a fine line between crank and turbine power, while meeting efficiency targets is the holy grail in a sense. Naturally fewer compromises need be made if your combustion process is superior (ie more efficient) to the competition.

[PlatinumZealot]

A more efficient ICE also needs less boost from the turbine and less help from the ERS so it is a double gain. Less load on the mguh and KERS. The ICE is really the key to everything.

[stevesingo]

A more efficient ICE also needs less boost from the turbine and less help from the ERS so it is a double gain. Less load on the mguh and KERS. The ICE is really the key to everything.

And quotes from Honda stating "we are there or thereabouts on ICE" are a window on the mindset of the organisation. Either they don't understand the above or they are resource limited and a focussing on quick wins and low hanging fruit.