FIA Thread

[vorticism]

RE: the Merc engine chat, the split turbo design came from their truck division, and it was Renault pushing hardest for the V6 design. I believe Mercedes actually wanted I4.

I4 would have been interesting to see, in the very earliest days it seemed like the FIA were going to go with I4, or at least this was the general assumption. I have a few ideas for how the packaging could have been resolved. However I should consider what the combined 1.6L V6 PU output ended up being and whether or not an I4 could supply that and at what fuel flow rate per swept cylinder volume & diameter. At 100 kg/hr, four cylinders at current 267 cc would have been more richly fueled, four at 400cc would have a similar a:f ratio although with a larger CC and associated implications. Was the 267cc cylinder @ 16.7 kg/hr arrangement chosen because of an expectation of its combustion dynamics? If so then the six cylinder count may have stemmed mainly from that rather than the structural qualities of a vee block.

SiLo, was there a production truck with that arrangement? Or rather they had some design studies in their portfolio for such.

Wouter, that article raises a, in hindsight, obvious counterarguement, namely: "blame the losers." Tricky to pull off, maybe, and the last ones to do so were RBers you might say. When Horner "blamed the losers" 2014-2016 for the Renault PU he was criticized as rude.

[SiLo]

SiLo, was there a production truck with that arrangement? Or rather they had some design studies in their portfolio for such.

I don't know, from what I can find, it might have been an original idea within Mercedes, but the execution was enabled by expertise from their truck division, who had a lot of experience with turbos. We might never know the true answer, but multiple sources recognise the input of the truck division in making that design successful.

https://www.espn.com.au/f1/story/_/id/1 ... -get-right

[diffuser]

Beyond ridiculous.

Four years off, nbd. Merc (engine side) were always going to have the upper hand developing an engine like that compared to Renault and Ferrari, imo. Bigger company, more diesel and EV tech to draw upon in-house. In these senses Merc had 30-50+ year head starts. They had direct Injection in the 1950s you'll recall! The complexities of the regs made it difficult for Renault, Honda and Ferrari to compete, while they could during the NA era; while the German engineering powerhouse of Mercedes took it in stride. The split turbo alone was a brilliant interpretation of the rules.

Any team would be angling for their best outcome within their ability to influence the FIA and best leverage the rules. This is what you refer to as "cheating" in other threads, you'll recall; so chrisc90 not totally out in the woods with his implications.

Come on.. let's have some citations for these claims - Was Merc a large company in 2013 than Renault? Did the powertrains division have anything, at all, to do with core DaimlerBenz? Why does diesel or EV matter?

It's smelling of hyperbole up in that post mate

Developing the best engine is not cheating. We're not saying that anyone who does a better job is a cheat are we?

Investing more money in the development of a new PU will be cheating this time. It wasn't last time.


Pretty sure it was Ferrari that wanted the V6s.

[AR3-GP]

Could photographers be hired as a marketing expense? Could those photographers then take pictures of "other cars" and still be considered a "marketing activity"? This seems like a grey area. If you were to man the circuit with photographers hoping to snap pictures of the floor of another car, then post them innocuously to a "gallery" on an unlisted marketing website where the technical team study the images...it would seem like a loophole to hire more people to do technical bidding.

[Big Tea]

Could photographers be hired as a marketing expense? Could those photographers then take pictures of "other cars" and still be considered a "marketing activity"? This seems like a grey area. If you were to man the circuit with photographers hoping to snap pictures of the floor of another car, then post them innocuously to a "gallery" on an unlisted marketing website where the technical team study the images...it would seem like a loophole to hire more people to do technical bidding.

I have 'seen' a brown envelope exchange in a non F1 context where smiling vouchers are exchanged for holiday snaps.
There are many ways around it, including a security employee with them, but I don't know that the F1 teams would risk it to a high extent. However there is no reason at all why someone working in the paint shop or restaurant can not post pics from a day out where ever they want. If they get sent on a jolly for the company, well, its not related is it.

[AR3-GP]

Could photographers be hired as a marketing expense? Could those photographers then take pictures of "other cars" and still be considered a "marketing activity"? This seems like a grey area. If you were to man the circuit with photographers hoping to snap pictures of the floor of another car, then post them innocuously to a "gallery" on an unlisted marketing website where the technical team study the images...it would seem like a loophole to hire more people to do technical bidding.

I have 'seen' a brown envelope exchange in a non F1 context where smiling vouchers are exchanged for holiday snaps.
There are many ways around it, including a security employee with them, but I don't know that the F1 teams would risk it to a high extent. However there is no reason at all why someone working in the paint shop or restaurant can not post pics from a day out where ever they want. If they get sent on a jolly for the company, well, its not related is it.

exactly

[mrluke]

Could photographers be hired as a marketing expense? Could those photographers then take pictures of "other cars" and still be considered a "marketing activity"? This seems like a grey area. If you were to man the circuit with photographers hoping to snap pictures of the floor of another car, then post them innocuously to a "gallery" on an unlisted marketing website where the technical team study the images...it would seem like a loophole to hire more people to do technical bidding.

To an extent you are going to have to rely on buy-in from team senior leads to not exploit the spending cap. If they really wanted to there are lots of ways to take advantage (probably the reason RBR has split into so many small companies now).

[AR3-GP]

Could photographers be hired as a marketing expense? Could those photographers then take pictures of "other cars" and still be considered a "marketing activity"? This seems like a grey area. If you were to man the circuit with photographers hoping to snap pictures of the floor of another car, then post them innocuously to a "gallery" on an unlisted marketing website where the technical team study the images...it would seem like a loophole to hire more people to do technical bidding.

To an extent you are going to have to rely on buy-in from team senior leads to not exploit the spending cap.

One could have a job listing with a requirement to have a current portfolio of recent F1 car photos

To an extent you are going to have to rely on buy-in from team technical leads not to get too clever with the technical regulatio....oh wait


The possibilities really are endless.

[mrluke]

Could photographers be hired as a marketing expense? Could those photographers then take pictures of "other cars" and still be considered a "marketing activity"? This seems like a grey area. If you were to man the circuit with photographers hoping to snap pictures of the floor of another car, then post them innocuously to a "gallery" on an unlisted marketing website where the technical team study the images...it would seem like a loophole to hire more people to do technical bidding.

To an extent you are going to have to rely on buy-in from team senior leads to not exploit the spending cap. If they really wanted to there are lots of ways to take advantage (probably the reason RBR has split into so many small companies now).

Mercedes could develop a "road car" or track exclusive toy like Ferrari do, that just happens to be fully compliant with the F1 rules, they could spend whatever they want on designing that and then just transfer people over to the F1 team, or work out the things that work and tell the f1 team to target it.

But the fallout would be them being labelled cheats and the spending cap being thrown out. Is that what a team wants? RBR don't seem especially bothered but the others do.

[AR3-GP]

Could photographers be hired as a marketing expense? Could those photographers then take pictures of "other cars" and still be considered a "marketing activity"? This seems like a grey area. If you were to man the circuit with photographers hoping to snap pictures of the floor of another car, then post them innocuously to a "gallery" on an unlisted marketing website where the technical team study the images...it would seem like a loophole to hire more people to do technical bidding.

To an extent you are going to have to rely on buy-in from team senior leads to not exploit the spending cap. If they really wanted to there are lots of ways to take advantage (probably the reason RBR has split into so many small companies now).

Mercedes could develop a "road car" or track exclusive toy like Ferrari do, that just happens to be fully compliant with the F1 rules, they could spend whatever they want on designing that and then just transfer people over to the F1 team, or work out the things that work and tell the f1 team to target it.

But the fallout would be them being labelled cheats and the spending cap being thrown out. Is that what a team wants? RBR don't seem especially bothered but the others do.

What's stopping people deliberately studying F1 without an affiliation to any current F1 team, and then using this to get a job at an F1 team? We have people like Vanja66 on here who have modeled F1 cars in CFD already. An F1 team that hires him would not have to "pay" for anything he learned on his own and all of the ideas he developed on his own. Do we ban hiring people with "experience"?

There becomes a point where it becomes almost silly to police it.

[vorticism]

Some things translate but specificity matters. Optimizing a design in wind tunnel, CFD, and on track is partly what the budget cap is targeting. That has to be done with the same car. I think eyebrows would only be raised if teams started selling a RB19 Touring or a W14 GT or a SF23 Stradale on the side during the same season.

[Big Tea]

To an extent you are going to have to rely on buy-in from team senior leads to not exploit the spending cap. If they really wanted to there are lots of ways to take advantage (probably the reason RBR has split into so many small companies now).

Mercedes could develop a "road car" or track exclusive toy like Ferrari do, that just happens to be fully compliant with the F1 rules, they could spend whatever they want on designing that and then just transfer people over to the F1 team, or work out the things that work and tell the f1 team to target it.

But the fallout would be them being labelled cheats and the spending cap being thrown out. Is that what a team wants? RBR don't seem especially bothered but the others do.

What's stopping people deliberately studying F1 without an affiliation to any current F1 team, and then using this to get a job at an F1 team? We have people like Vanja66 on here who have modeled F1 cars in CFD already. An F1 team that hires him would not have to "pay" for anything he learned on his own and all of the ideas he developed on his own. Do we ban hiring people with "experience"?

There becomes a point where it becomes almost silly to police it.

Is that not exactly what happens when teams employ people from other teams? They need a good person to fill a position, but if one on the applicants has knowledge above and beyond, it is not a cheat, it is a bonus.
Teams don't just go shopping for an engineer, they look for one who has worked in a particular field, preferably at a team having more success than them at the moment.

They are not 'stealing' anything as the knowledge belongs to the engineer. They may have gained this knowledge on the salary at the other team, but it is swings and roundabouts.

[mclaren111]

Pitpass:

Having carefully managed to have avoided one certain ceremony last weekend, yours truly wasn't quite so lucky on Sunday.

Indeed, being the masochist that one is, I actually sat through it again later in the week just to see if it was as bad as originally thought. It was.

Thankfully, while the Sprint continues to divide opinion, pretty much everyone, except Lewis Hamilton was against that nonsense that preceded the Miami Grand Prix, then again until Mercedes gives him a car with which he can battle Max et al what else has he got to look forward to on Sundays?

Naff doesn't begin to cover it, and the fact that someone actually signed it off only backs up our fears for what FOM has in store for us in Vegas, the supposed entertainment capital of the world.

Sadly, it's not as if the race made up for it.

Equally disturbing on Sunday was the sight of Sir Jackie Stewart being manhandled by security when he attempted to get Roger Federer's attention on behalf of Martin Brundle for a brief interview.

That a three-time world champion, a man who helped put Formula One on the sporting map, a man who in his day was widely regarded as sport's equivalent of a rock 'n' roll star, friend of the genuinely famous and global royalty, the subject of an excellent movie by Roman Polanksi, was denied access to an area seemingly reserved for rappers and the like was shameful, his manhandling making it even more so.

Indeed, reflecting on the incident, yours truly wondered if at some point in the future we might see Sir Jackie once again denied access, whilst (the now disgraced) Polanski smiles out at him from the VIP area, such as the priorities of the sport's new powers that be. And let's not forget, Vegas has history.

And why, one has to ask, was it the job of the FIA stewards - the sport's governing body - to summon and punish Sergio Perez for arriving late?

If nothing else it reinforced one's belief that Liberty Media still doesn't understand the sport that it bought.

To that end there is an article annoyingly buzzing around inside my head, but still in need of that 'hook' that pulls it all together. All the ingredients are there it just requires that magical eureka moment that sees it all fall into place. To give you a hint, it involves Spiderman and some of his colleagues.

This weekend we enjoy a break ahead of the triple-header that is Imola, Monaco and Barcelona, make the most of it. We fear it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Until next time.

Liberty = Bud Light...

[chrisc90]

Seems a well wrote, and true, article.

[AR3-GP]

Prepare yourselves:

The value that F1 puts on big US business was made clear in Miami last weekend when the honour of waving the chequered flag was bestowed not on one of the many celebrities but instead on Hard Rock chairman Jim Allen. His entertainment and lifestyle company is involved with F1 through both its sponsorship of Red Bull, as well as being partners of the Hard Rock Stadium in Miami and the new Las Vegas GP.

Allen himself told Motorsport.com that F1 had transformed itself in the USA. Speaking about the success of events like the Miami GP, he said: “We are very respectful to Indy[Car] and NASCAR, but obviously, this is just a whole another level. We're really honoured to be involved.”

He added: “I think when you have these great cities like Miami, like Vegas, which are international destinations, I think that's the formula for success. I hope they don't dilute the product in the United States, because there's so many great cities here that could really benefit from it.”

As F1 tries best to plot its path between keeping both the casual and the hardcore fans happy, Allen says what is critical for companies like his is the entertainment element.

“In any sporting event, while there is the act of the sport itself and the competition, I think you need the entertainment factor,” he said. “Frankly, when we did our partnership with Stephen Ross, for the Hard Rock Stadium, that was the conversation. We don't want to just be football, we want to be an entertainment destination. That's why we're so humbled that Stephen and I were able to work out the partnership. We have everything from football to concerts to tennis and Formula 1 racing, so it's pretty exciting. It's a really great partnership.”

The numbers back what Allen says: US business interest in what F1 is rolling out right now is at a level never seen before.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-r ... /10469199/

He added: “I think when you have these great cities like Miami, like Vegas, which are international destinations, I think that's the formula for success. I hope they don't dilute the product in the United States, because there's so many great cities here that could really benefit from it.”

You should be frightened