Mclaren Honda 2015

[PlatinumZealot]

Guys must not be so quick to blame honda for everything. Alot of the electronics belong to Mclaren too.

[Jef Patat]

This blown diffuser works differently from the Blown diffuser in the RB6. This one blows the throat of the diffuser and it is not as efficient as sealing the sides and blowing the throat as what the RB6 did.

Please see that post as being part of a discussion about copying and reusing concepts, from competitors and from history. I never meant to say they copy exactly and exactly for the same purpose. I also mentioned that such copying is not always possible due to different rules. But the concept was not new.

Guys must not be so quick to blame honda for everything. Alot of the electronics belong to Mclaren too.

Could you elaborate on what you're referring to? I know McLaren Applied Technologies provides a lot of electronics (=hardware) for example the SECU. If memory serves correctly the provide the controllers with low level software, that is OS and drivers (again, out of head, I believe something called TAG-OS, because they used to be provided by TAG electronics or something like that). AFAIK each team can do whatever the want on top of that, so electronics is the same, software is different. As far as the engine goes, I believe Honda does the soft.

Though I don't share your basepoint, don't interpret me as saying: blaim Honda for everything. At the moment the engine is the weakest link, that doesn't mean I'm saying the chassis is the strongest one. It's not that easy to say, everything influences everything.

[vantage87]

Alonso expecting a 'different McLaren' in second half of 2015
http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-web ... -2015.html (20.07.2015)

"I think the second part of the year will show a completely different McLaren, much more competitive," said the Spaniard. "The steps that are coming are quite big.

“This is not too difficult when you are at the back of the grid and two seconds off the pace - every step then is half a second or eight-tenths. When you are fighting for a podium you [only] gain 0.1s every two weeks. I think we will get much closer to the top guys in the second part of the championship.”

Alonso conceded, however, that two of the next three races - Belgium in August and Italy in September - will be among the worst for McLaren, in terms of the mismatch between circuit characteristics and those of the MP4-30.

"Austria, Canada, Spa and Monza are the four biggest power-effect circuits,” he commented. “The nature [of those is] not good for us. We have passed two; still two to defend."

[godlameroso]

If they could gain 10 kph on the straights relative to where they are, they'd be firmly in the midfield fighting with FI RB TR and Lotus. 20kph and they'd be up there with Ferrari and Williams. 25kph they'd be challenging Mercedes.

[PlatinumZealot]

This blown diffuser works differently from the Blown diffuser in the RB6. This one blows the throat of the diffuser and it is not as efficient as sealing the sides and blowing the throat as what the RB6 did.

Please see that post as being part of a discussion about copying and reusing concepts, from competitors and from history. I never meant to say they copy exactly and exactly for the same purpose. I also mentioned that such copying is not always possible due to different rules. But the concept was not new.

Guys must not be so quick to blame honda for everything. Alot of the electronics belong to Mclaren too.

Could you elaborate on what you're referring to? I know McLaren Applied Technologies provides a lot of electronics (=hardware) for example the SECU. If memory serves correctly the provide the controllers with low level software, that is OS and drivers (again, out of head, I believe something called TAG-OS, because they used to be provided by TAG electronics or something like that). AFAIK each team can do whatever the want on top of that, so electronics is the same, software is different. As far as the engine goes, I believe Honda does the soft.

Though I don't share your basepoint, don't interpret me as saying: blaim Honda for everything. At the moment the engine is the weakest link, that doesn't mean I'm saying the chassis is the strongest one. It's not that easy to say, everything influences everything.

I will have to find the quote from Arai and get back to you. If my memory serves Arai said some of the energy recovery sfotware Mclaren is responsible for.

[vantage87]

Honda targets 'full use' of ERS in Hungary

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/132 ... rs-hungary

...Honda motorsport boss Yasuhisa Arai is hoping to offer both drivers full use of the ERS in Hungary.

"Our goal is to end the first half of the season with precise energy management and full use of the ERS to enable the drivers' skills to shine through at this circuit," Arai said. "Due to its lack of long straights and full-throttle sectors, this track is less strenuous for the power unit compared to most circuits.

"However, the frequent undulation requires more precise energy management and deployment at lower gears and corner exits. Getting our energy management settings right will be crucial throughout the weekend." ...

[vantage87]

What’s wrong with McLaren Honda ? - very interesting article about chassis, suspension, power unit and upgrade tokens.
http://www.formulaupdate.com/whats-wron ... ren-honda/

[Vasconia]

What’s wrong with McLaren Honda ? - very interesting article about chassis, suspension, power unit and upgrade tokens.
http://www.formulaupdate.com/whats-wron ... ren-honda/

A long(but interesting) article which sums up what we have already said, Honda started too late and not investing enough money. 2016´s mid-season sounds quite logic to me.

[Facts Only]

What’s wrong with McLaren Honda ? - very interesting article about chassis, suspension, power unit and upgrade tokens.
http://www.formulaupdate.com/whats-wron ... ren-honda/

A long(but interesting) article which sums up what we have already said, Honda started too late and not investing enough money. 2016´s mid-season sounds quite logic to me.

2016 Mid season to be where? They may get to where Mercedes (and now Ferrari) currently are but the goal posts will have moved on significantly by then and presumably Renault will have sorted themselves out as well.

The law of diminishing returns still applies but by mid 2016 Honda will be 2.5 years behind Merc and Ferrari. By starting late, not investing enough and messing up badly they have cemented their status as also rans during this engine rules cycle.

It all comes down to man and dyno hours, if Merc started on this project a year before Honda then Honda need to pour more resource in to make up those man and dyno hours in a shorter period of time which they just dont seem to be doing.

Ferrari were behind in 2014 so they nabbed engineers from Merc and Renault, cleared out lackluster staff and poured resource into the project, result was a major catch up on Merc. Honda should look carefully at Ferrari.

[Thunder]

I guess we're clear for new Engines come Spa....
https://twitter.com/Motorsport/status/6 ... 1922255876

[kaepernickus]

As currently no one can tell:

- When Honda will be able to overcome reliability issues and tune up engine power
- How powerful the engine really is once it's running at 100%

... any sentences like "They have messed it up, invested too little and will never get close to podiums or improve at all." as well as super positive "Will be as good as or even better than the Mercedes engine." are pure speculation and I'm honestly getting tired of reading posts and articles presenting pure speculation as facts.

It could still be a very good engine hampered by (supposedly) aggressive design and reliability issues (best case) or it's simply an engine not good enough for top results.
Considering statements from Honda/McLaren I don't think they're totally sure about the engines real potential themselves. How could anyone from the outside know it any better?

[Jef Patat]

I share your view a 100% but sadly enough that doesn't mean the rest of the internet does. Sometimes I react sometimes I'm too fed up with all that nonsense / so called educated speculation. That article above for example:

Conclusion

It’s simple, Honda did not put enough staff, money or time behind the new power unit...

It's simple -> no it never is, if it were the problems would have been solved
not enough staff -> says who, any comparison possible, what would be enough, any idea on what staff is needed, what specialities, what level, which management techniques, ...
money -> same as above
time -> same as above

But hey, it reads as sugar, tabloid like technical articles.

We have to admit though that nobody on this forum has any technical data to make any statement at all. But that doesn't mean we can still have some interesting discussions, out of which we all can learn.

[mrluke]

I dont understand why people say it is not running at 100%.

The PU is running past breaking point, surely the team are getting 100% of the available power? They are certainly using all of the available fuel.

The PU is already at 100% anything else is just Mclaren speak about performance that is not available.

[kaepernickus]

I dont understand why people say it is not running at 100%.

The PU is running past breaking point, surely the team are getting 100% of the available power? They are certainly using all of the available fuel.

The PU is already at 100% anything else is just Mclaren speak about performance that is not available.

That's exactly the thing I was talking about. You don't know that, so why say this is a fact?

According to McHonda the ERS is detuned at the moment due to reliability issues, therefore the ICE does consume more fuel and has to be detuned as well to achieve the right level of fuel consumption.

100% - detuned ERS - detuned ICE = 100% doesn't work

Honda just said that they hope to use the full ERS capacity in Hungary. if this is true we might get a new indicator of the engines capability.

With ERS being at 100% AND perfectly mapped (this is pretty important) you can get more power from the ICE while not increasing fuel consumption.

[Thunder]

Meaning it runs at 100% of what is achieveable right now doesn't mean it's 100% of what the Engine is capable of. Both are 100%, but vastly different outcomes still. Nobody (except Honda and some People at McLaren) know where they are right now. So while we can discuss it all well and good it becomes a Problem when actual Numbers get involved. So i tend to only get involved in basic dicussions about the PU. WAY too many unknown Factors.