Purist vs Spectacle?

[myurr]

I don't want everyone to agree with me, just back up their own opinions rather than making emotional claims such as "I don't like". We keep going round in circles because there have only been irrational statements of opinion as cast iron fact.

I get, now, that this is just the proverbial straw but that just makes the outpouring of hate at Pirelli even more irrational. They are not to blame, so target the FIA who are responsible for all the technical rules and the requirements that were handed down to Pirelli. I also hate the phrase lottery as it has all kinds of connotations that simply are not true. If the 'haters' stuck to criticising the whole rule base and said the tyres were too difficult to work with rather than blind random luck then I'd have no quarrel.

[bhall]

Do you really think your claims have been any less emotional?

If there's one constant throughout this entire discussion, it's that the genesis of our opinions is an emotional response to what we've seen and experienced. That's the only reason why all of us can point to the same pieces of evidence and have entirely different interpretations as to what they mean.

In other words, we're human.

If you disliked the situation, you'd see things the way I see them. But, you don't. So, you don't.

As far as Pirelli goes, I don't blame Pirelli. As you say, they're doing what they've been asked to do by the powers-that-be. That their name is literally plastered all over that which I find appalling isn't doing them any favors, though.

And c'mon, you'd be all over this had you thought of it instead of me.



That's just good ---.

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

It's a shame. They all conserve tyres. They all drove slowly. Alonso is the best example, before the lap 17, he was so slow... One second slower at least. And then, he switch to 1.19.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton


But Rosberg pace it was the same. Right after his pit stop, he made a 1.19.1 with the soft tyres !!
And then, he switch to 1.21... So yes, i think Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, Rosberg and Massa could go faster than Vettel with the soft tyres, but if they did that they couldn't go finish the race with the same set of tyres.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Rosberg

[GrizzleBoy]

How many overtakes, legitimate RACING overtakes did we see in Monaco today?

How many did you count?

How many times did we see a blatantly faster car get well within a second of the car in front, but have nowhere to go because the car in front was just doing their own little tyre preservation dance

What is interesting about that in terms of entertainment for a racing fan and how is it good for racing?

[raymondu999]

In terms of the racing - I stick to my previous statement, that I prefer a display of dominant excellence where 1 guy and car so comprehensively beats the other, leaving our jaws gaping. But in terms of the championship, in a reverse-logic sort of way, I find this season really interesting. You have anybody and their dog capable of winning races, and oftentimes when the car is the quickest package they will win just about easily (a la Maldonado, a la *almost* Perez). But look at the top of the table. It's still the usual suspects.

What has, oddly enough, in my view, distinguished the "average F1 driver" from the "good/great F1 drivers" this year has truly been what they make of the days when their car is off kilter. The fightbacks they stage, like Alonso's dogged fight in Monaco, and Vettel making his long first stint work marvelously, at times up to 1.5s quicker than his teammate on the same, albeit fresher, tyres. Like fighting through the pack the way Lewis did in Barcelona, and the way Vettel recovered from his drivethrough in Barcelona.

[Cam]

What has, oddly enough, in my view, distinguished the "average F1 driver" from the "good/great F1 drivers" this year has truly been what they make of the days when their car is off kilter. The fightbacks they stage, like Alonso's dogged fight in Monaco, and Vettel making his long first stint work marvelously, at times up to 1.5s quicker than his teammate on the same, albeit fresher, tyres. Like fighting through the pack the way Lewis did in Barcelona, and the way Vettel recovered from his drivethrough in Barcelona.

I'm not so sure we're seeing that. In years previous, yes, I would have agreed. Take Monaco 2012 - Webber was driving so slowly after his first stop that it was suggested he was 'backing the pack up' for Vettel (which worked a treat). Also, all the drivers were nursing their cars the entire race, so what may have looked like a fightback or dogged attempt may have been actual performance, although it was held back for tactical reasons. I guess with the current situation with tyres, we'll never actually know when someone is good or bad as the tyres simple won't allow constant flatout performance of the car.

[rjsa]

How many overtakes, legitimate RACING overtakes did we see in Monaco today?

How many did you count?

How many times did we see a blatantly faster car get well within a second of the car in front, but have nowhere to go because the car in front was just doing their own little tyre preservation dance

What is interesting about that in terms of entertainment for a racing fan and how is it good for racing?

Just in case you don't remeber how effin hard and fun it is to pass in monaco:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw23PjsC9Ug[/youtube]

[raymondu999]

Take Monaco 2012 - Webber was driving so slowly after his first stop that it was suggested he was 'backing the pack up' for Vettel (which worked a treat).

He didn't need to. Rosberg was at that point in the race 2-3 tenths slower. They were slower because the track cooled down massively. Vettel kept the heat in his tyres from the opening laps, while WEB/ROS/ALO/HAM struggled to bring their fresh softs to temperature in the cold weather.

what may have looked like a fightback or dogged attempt may have been actual performance, although it was held back for tactical reasons.

Dogged doesn't mean speed - dogged means determined and persevering. When I say dogged here I'm talking of the race performances where the guy is clearly doing his best to make strategy work and to get the best result possible, be it from pushing 100% for every lap, or by being patient to bring out the killer laps when it counted.

Also, all the drivers were nursing their cars the entire race

I have my doubts about that. I don't think they were nursing to be honest. Monaco is very much low degradation as a circuit - it's generally more of an issue with graining there, and a bit of wear. Wear and graining have never been a weakness on the Pirellis. In fact generally speaking we've seen less graining on the Pirellis than we have on the Bridgestones. I think they were a lot closer to full-bore pace than usual.

I guess with the current situation with tyres, we'll never actually know when someone is good or bad as the tyres simple won't allow constant flatout performance of the car.

Correction: we won't know if someone is fast or slow, not good or bad. Speed is one of the qualities I admire - but it's not the only quality that defines a "good" driver - at least not in my book.

How many overtakes, legitimate RACING overtakes did we see in Monaco today?

How many did you count?

How many times did we see a blatantly faster car get well within a second of the car in front, but have nowhere to go because the car in front was just doing their own little tyre preservation dance

What is interesting about that in terms of entertainment for a racing fan and how is it good for racing?

Depends really. I have never minded any absence of overtaking nor any glut of it. I don't mind either way. Overtaking to me is merely a bonus.

[Cam]

I guess with the current situation with tyres, we'll never actually know when someone is good or bad as the tyres simple won't allow constant flatout performance of the car.

Correction: we won't know if someone is fast or slow, not good or bad. Speed is one of the qualities I admire - but it's not the only quality that defines a "good" driver - at least not in my book.

Hmmm, I would doubt any F1 team employing a good 'slow' driver (see: Massa). Maybe they would. The driver should be 'fast' and extract every little bit out of a car (see: Alonso). What purpose would good slow driver be? In a race context, maybe strategy. Maybe a good slow driver can come through by ticking of slow laps times and coming out ahead through pit stops.

In my book, a good driver includes being fast and doesn't blame his tools. You can still be fast in a crap car.

[bhall]

You can't be fast in a crap car. You can be fast in a difficult car, but a crap car is a crap car no matter who's behind the wheel.

I think what Ray's saying is that speed is nothing without the wherewithal to know when and how to use it best.

[raymondu999]

Hmmm, I would doubt any F1 team employing a good 'slow' driver (see: Massa). Maybe they would. The driver should be 'fast' and extract every little bit out of a car (see: Alonso). What purpose would good slow driver be? In a race context, maybe strategy. Maybe a good slow driver can come through by ticking of slow laps times and coming out ahead through pit stops.

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is speed is no longer the sole overriding concern. If (arbitrary scale) Driver A has 90 points of speed and 80 points of tyre preservation, and Driver B has 85 points of speed and 90 points of tyre preservation, then Driver B could potentially be the more lucrative driver. Still fast, just not AS fast. I said nothing about hiring a slow driver.

In my book, a good driver includes being fast and doesn't blame his tools. You can still be fast in a crap car.

Exactly. But we have to accept that in today's F1, "fast" is not the sole factor for defining a "good" driver from a "bad" one

You can't be fast in a crap car. You can be fast in a difficult car, but a crap car is a crap car no matter who's behind the wheel.

To be fair to Cam, I think what he means is you can still extract the limit out of a crap car - that's driving the car fast. You won't be fast relative to your competition, but you'd be fast relative to the car you're driving.

I think what Ray's saying is that speed is nothing without the wherewithal to know when and how to use it best.

Yes - thank you bhallg2k. In F1 the "ancillary qualities" have always been required, and even much more so last year and this year.

[Cam]

In my book, a good driver includes being fast and doesn't blame his tools. You can still be fast in a crap car.

Exactly. But we have to accept that in today's F1, "fast" is not the sole factor for defining a "good" driver from a "bad" one

You're right for todays F1. The days of jumping in a beast and wringing it's neck for a hour are gone. They wouldn't have had a single thought for driving to lap times and I think if you suggested that to them you'd cop a mouth full. I wonder if any current or former F1 drivers would prefer being known for being primarily fast or primarily being a package, with a range of skills which perhaps being fast is not their strength? What would be at the top of the CV?

[raymondu999]

I think they'd primarily want to be known as someone who could do both. Someone who could do well in either formula, rather than a one-trick pony. If you had to choose, however, it truly depends. I think Hamilton would prefer to be known for speed; Button as the "ancillary skills" one. (Note that I'm not belittling these skillsets - I'm just calling them that for lack of a better word)

[Cam]

Yeah, it's interesting. I know how I would approach it if I was a team owner. Your gut tells you you want the fastest guy and we'll build a machine to encapsulate that, but the 2012 reality is the more balanced driver probably has a better shot at the title. From a Purist vs Spectacle view, choosing drivers that would work better in a strategic environment who simply run the car to the right numbers and accrue points, again, doesn't seem right.

Drivers will now have to train to be 0.1s perfect over a large number of laps. It could actually open up the driver pool and promote drivers to ignore winning by being 'fast' in order to show a CV designed to impress F1 2012 regs.

[Cam]

So, here's a nice article from OneStopStrategy - http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1n ... stone.html

Let's look at this step by step.

The dilemma for F1's tyre supplier is that it was specifically asked to spice up the show with heavily degrading tyres, and the six different winners so far this season proves the Italian marque met the brief.

Purists never thought the sport needed 'spicing up' that's being our point from day one. In fact, we're trying to stop it from being dumbed down.

On the other hand, the purists are moaning that the unpredictability could now drive away the real fans.

I have never begrudged someone with an opinion that F1 was 'processional' or 'boring' and from what I can tell, they were never called 'moaners'. So maybe let's leave that for the 3 years olds. It's not constructive and it's cheap.

"We think it's absolutely great when people are talking about us," motor sport director Paul Hembery is quoted by Germany's Auto Motor und Sport."But we don't want to be the focus of the conversation, just a part of it," said the Briton.

But you are. That's the whole point of this. I'm going to compile a list of every driver, team and commentator, from Shumacher right through who is criticizing the tyres. Pirelli are the talking point, the tech has been forgotten.

Referring to the processional Monaco race, he (Paul Hembery) said: "You can see what happens when the tyres last forever."

I cannot believe you just said that. Have you been watching the Monaco GP - it's always been like that. And to try and draw cheap points by saying that ever-lasting tyres will always have that effect is just plain wrong. That was a very bad example and poor form really.

PH: "It is not the tyre – it is the interaction between car and tyre to get the tyre in to the window that maximises the performance. I am not trying to shift responsibility: but it is that."

LOL - that's the tyre mate. When when eveyone say things like “We know we were slow (in Bahrain) but we don’t understand why,” revealed Melbourne winner Jenson Button.' - -that's the tyre. So yes, you are trying to shift critisim.

Purist Vs Spectacle - have a great show, by all means, but do it by allowing the teams to find innovations to win races, not through a control source.

The first step in fixing the problem - is admitting you have one.