2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Jolle]

If it was really that black and white then the "you shall supply another team" rule wouldn't have had to be made and a team without an engine would be out. In F1 you must build your own car, not engine.

That was because someone kept throwing their toys out of the pram. Not because Mercedes were unfair.

[Alexf1]

They were properly challenged but chickened out at the last moment

[Csmith1980]

They were properly challenged but chickened out at the last moment

[SmallSoldier]

Of course it hasn't always been easy, but it worked out most of the time. You know 2015 RB quit Renault because Lauda agreed to supply them with Merc engines which Toto blocked later. It even triggered a new rule: mandatory engine supply. Also Brawn had finished 8th in the constructors in 2007 (as Honda) so there was no sign they would be a close rival. No wonder they did get Merc engines. Notice the pattern?

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

Under your logic, why didn’t RBR provided every other team with specs on their aero / chassis? I mean, they could have open source it for everyone else to copy… Is it a weak mentality to keep that information as locked as possible? To the point that trying to prevent an employee (Fallows) from joining another team for a year approx. 2 years?… It isn’t, it is simply keeping a competitive advantage in one of the most competitive environments to participate in.

[Ryar]

So Mercedes are now mentally weak for not supplying their closest competitor with a PU? Do you realise how absurd that sounds?
It’s like saying Barcelona were mentally weak because they didn’t sell Messi to Real Madrid.

That's a wrong analogy. It's like saying, Mercedes sell off their engine and they can't use it. In fact, Mercedes were afraid RB would beat them and that's why they didn't provide engines to RB, which they were entitled to. Neither fact is undeniable.

Why, if you invest millions to be the best, would you give your greatest rival, your investment? That has nothing to do with being afraid, it's just stupid investment if you do. Marko and Lauda were good friends and for a moment he forgot that it was business. Do you think Apple would give/sell their IP to Intel so they could catch up on mobile processors? No, Apple invested billions to beat them. Just like Mercedes invested millions to beat Renault, Ferrari and RedBull.

In one statement you agree and in another you try to deny.

Mercedes engines division has signed up with FIA to provide engines to customers and by that agreement, they should simply provide to anyone. Mercedes-Ineos-Wolff race team is also a customer who gets it for free as they are part of the same holdings. FIA has allowed them to sell it to whoever they want, by virtue of that they can deny whoever they want. They denied, as you say, their greatest rival, because their greatest rival could beat them with on par equipment, not because Mercedes didn't like the taste of RB drinks.

Another wrong analogy of Apple. They are not in the business of selling their stuff "in a competition" to customer teams. Neither is Mercedes engines selling their IP to anyone as part of engine supply.

[ispano6]

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

How about if you want to be the best, you research, design, develop and produce your own PU with all of the hard work and costs associated with that endeavour?

Red Bull could have gone down the road of developing a PU for themselves in partnership with a specialist third party but chose to let Renault do it and then, when they didn't get what they wanted, they turned on them very publicly. Why would Mercedes want to enter in to what could very well have been toxic relationship with Red Bull? How likely is it that if Red Bull didn't win they'd have accused Mercedes of underhand tactics on the PU front? With Horner's and Marko's track record with Renault, "extremely likely" is the answer.

The childish invective from Horner and Marko at the time shows what would have happened. I can remember them saying that Mercedes were "scared of supplying us". Really, is that grown up language? Did they expect that it would bully Mercedes in to supplying them? That's why Mercedes didn't want to get in bed with Red Bull.

If I recall correctly the Renault product kept breaking down, Toro Rosso were being supplied power units made from used spare parts. Yes, that is hardly what RedBull would have wanted.

[Just_a_fan]

If it was really that black and white then the "you shall supply another team" rule wouldn't have had to be made and a team without an engine would be out. In F1 you must build your own car, not engine.

The engine supply rule isn't "you shall supply anyone that asks", it's "you shall supply a certain number depending on how many suppliers are available and how many you're already supplying. Mercedes were already supplying enough engines to meet the rules.

Red Bull weren't supplying anyone because they chose not to spend the time and money developing a PU system unlike Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault - who all invested a huge amount in doing so.

[Just_a_fan]

That's a wrong analogy. It's like saying, Mercedes sell off their engine and they can't use it. In fact, Mercedes were afraid RB would beat them and that's why they didn't provide engines to RB, which they were entitled to. Neither fact is undeniable.

Why, if you invest millions to be the best, would you give your greatest rival, your investment? That has nothing to do with being afraid, it's just stupid investment if you do. Marko and Lauda were good friends and for a moment he forgot that it was business. Do you think Apple would give/sell their IP to Intel so they could catch up on mobile processors? No, Apple invested billions to beat them. Just like Mercedes invested millions to beat Renault, Ferrari and RedBull.

In one statement you agree and in another you try to deny.

Mercedes engines division has signed up with FIA to provide engines to customers and by that agreement, they should simply provide to anyone.

The agreement isn't to provide engines to anyone. It's to provide to a certain number of customer teams depending on how many teams and engine suppliers there are at a given time. Fewer suppliers means more customer teams per engine supplier.

Red Bull tried to do F1 on the cheap and got bitten on the bum by it. Mercedes invested massively in building the entire package and reaped the rewards from that. That's life.

[Ryar]

Why, if you invest millions to be the best, would you give your greatest rival, your investment? That has nothing to do with being afraid, it's just stupid investment if you do. Marko and Lauda were good friends and for a moment he forgot that it was business. Do you think Apple would give/sell their IP to Intel so they could catch up on mobile processors? No, Apple invested billions to beat them. Just like Mercedes invested millions to beat Renault, Ferrari and RedBull.

In one statement you agree and in another you try to deny.

Mercedes engines division has signed up with FIA to provide engines to customers and by that agreement, they should simply provide to anyone.

The agreement isn't to provide engines to anyone. It's to provide to a certain number of customer teams depending on how many teams and engine suppliers there are at a given time. Fewer suppliers means more customer teams per engine supplier.

Red Bull tried to do F1 on the cheap and got bitten on the bum by it. Mercedes invested massively in building the entire package and reaped the rewards from that. That's life.

If the agreement is NOT to provide engines to anyone, why is Mercedes providing it to Aston Martin, Williams and McLaren? Is it that, the agreement they have signed up as a Constructor with FIA (I assume you have seen that) is only to provide to ONLY these teams? I have massive respect for the package they built, which anyone on the planet could have driven to titles.

[Just_a_fan]

In one statement you agree and in another you try to deny.

Mercedes engines division has signed up with FIA to provide engines to customers and by that agreement, they should simply provide to anyone.

The agreement isn't to provide engines to anyone. It's to provide to a certain number of customer teams depending on how many teams and engine suppliers there are at a given time. Fewer suppliers means more customer teams per engine supplier.

Red Bull tried to do F1 on the cheap and got bitten on the bum by it. Mercedes invested massively in building the entire package and reaped the rewards from that. That's life.

If the agreement is NOT to provide engines to anyone, why is Mercedes providing it to Aston Martin, Williams and McLaren? Is it that, the agreement they have signed up as a Constructor with FIA is only to provide to ONLY these teams?

The agreement is to provide to a specified number of customers depending on the number of suppliers available.

If Mercedes had not already been supplying the number of customers required by the FIA, the FIA would have made them supply Red Bull - IIRC, Red Bull tried to get the FIA to force Mercedes to supply them but the FIA weren't able to do so as Mercedes were already meeting their obligations.

If there had only been Mercedes and Ferrari as PU suppliers, Red Bull would have been entitled to a PU from whichever supplier had the fewest existing customer teams. So If Ferrari had been supplying more teams than Mercedes, Mercedes would have been forced to supply Red Bull. If there was more than one team needing a PU supplier, there would have been a ballot (basically drawing names from a hat) to allocate which team got which PU.

Red Bull's problem, of course, was that Renault stated that they would supply Red Bull. And that pulled the rug out from under Red Bull because they couldn't then claim they had no PU supply available.

[nzjrs]

Well this is off topic bickering.

[Juzh]

Mercedes made it clear they'll never supply PUs to a team that can pose a threat to them on a consistent basis. They did it in 2015 when they refused to supply red bull for 2016 season and instead gave engines to marussia a few weeks later (most likely for pennies). If mclaren turn out good in these new rules they probably have to start looking over their shoulders fast. I had a problem with it back then, but it does make sense from their point of view. This engine disparity existed basically forever, except for a few years during V8 era when by some miracle most engines ended up nearly identical.

[basti313]

Red Bull tried to do F1 on the cheap and got bitten on the bum by it. Mercedes invested massively in building the entire package and reaped the rewards from that. That's life.

In the past you could outspend your opponents, but you had to invest and invest every year. Technologies that were smart were allowed for some time and then got banned to level the field again.

With the engines you had to outsmart and outspend your opponents once and then got it cemented by the token system for three years. And the three year experience could never be overcome with a new engine, so it cemented itself. It is not a coincidence that Honda who was out of the tokens at the beginning is the only engine really challenging Merc...
In my point of view cementing the engine advantage is something completely out of the usual F1 habits. I do not find any other example where supreme technologies were not banned by the rules after maybe 2 years but could live their advantage for 10 years.

So I think it is wrong to make something small or normal out of this. The lasting engine difference is some remarkable change in F1 politics.

[Jolle]

Red Bull tried to do F1 on the cheap and got bitten on the bum by it. Mercedes invested massively in building the entire package and reaped the rewards from that. That's life.

In the past you could outspend your opponents, but you had to invest and invest every year. Technologies that were smart were allowed for some time and then got banned to level the field again.

With the engines you had to outsmart and outspend your opponents once and then got it cemented by the token system for three years. And the three year experience could never be overcome with a new engine, so it cemented itself. It is not a coincidence that Honda who was out of the tokens at the beginning is the only engine really challenging Merc...
In my point of view cementing the engine advantage is something completely out of the usual F1 habits. I do not find any other example where supreme technologies were not banned by the rules after maybe 2 years but could live their advantage for 10 years.

So I think it is wrong to make something small or normal out of this. The lasting engine difference is some remarkable change in F1 politics.

At the beginning of the hybid era, there was indeed a token system. But this was dropped after 1 ½ years to give Renault and Ferrari the opportunity to catch up. The funny part was that Renault never used it’s amount of tokens they could spend. Both Renault and Ferrari had lots of opportunity to change the layout of their engine, like Honda did, but choose not to and keep most of their layout the same over the whole period.

Especially Renault has been lagging behind behind the rest but this is not Mercedes fault and this doesn’t entitle RedBull just to get the Mercedes engine. Luckily Honda and McLaren didn’t work out, else RedBull would have been fighting for third in the championship behind McLaren and Mercedes, with Ferrari.

[Wouter]

Red Bull Racing

All the best bits from the 2021 Formula 1 season and some things you may not have seen! From Sergio Perez's first day at the Red Bull Racing factory, to Max Verstappen's maiden Monaco win;
from Checo's Baku victory to Max's title clincher in Abu Dhabi. Enjoy our greatest hits from a memorable year!