European Union bans sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2035

[djos]

I'm not sure how anything he posted backs that up, is what I'm getting at.

As I said, it seems apparent from the several manufactures and battery tech companies stating at the same time that they have broken through, that something has happened. I see nothing to think that Toyota are not being honest nor do I for a second think that if this is what it is about, that Zak hasn't spoken to them and got assurances in lieu of a demonstration of the product, I think the guy get's the benefit of the doubt on that front.

As for F1, this is a very big deal and teams will want to get their ducks in line. Get left out of the new battery tech and you are going to have a reasonable handicap.

They don’t even have a drivable demonstrator, that right there is a giant red flag for me. All the statements from Toyota regarding their SSB’s use speculative language, further making me doubt them.

I'm not sure we know what they have. I'm going to just pin this chat in my favourites and set up a reminder to review in 12 months

Hehe, honestly, I would love to be wrong. Affordable SSB’s would be a legitimate game changer for anything using lithium ion batteries today.

And they would be a huge deal for any F1 team able to get them into their cars first.

[mwillems]

They don’t even have a drivable demonstrator, that right there is a giant red flag for me. All the statements from Toyota regarding their SSB’s use speculative language, further making me doubt them.

I'm not sure we know what they have. I'm going to just pin this chat in my favourites and set up a reminder to review in 12 months

Hehe, honestly, I would love to be wrong. Affordable SSB’s would be a legitimate game changer for anything using lithium ion batteries today.

And they would be a huge deal for any F1 team able to get them into their cars first.

Like I say there have been several announcements, with BYD saying that will be able to go into production as they have worked out the mass production processes and costs etc so something is happening. I'd like to be optimistic and think that Zak is tying us up to a competitive future in this technology, but at the moment it is interesting, important, but largely conjecture as to who, how and when.

EVs are off topic but I will say I've been holding back getting one as any new battery tech has the potential to halve the value of a car overnight, which is why I have been following this subject through the past 2 years, otherwise I'd have a Tesla by now lol

[trinidefender]

(unless things slip)

I would take Toyota and anything they say about EVs with a huge pinch of salt. They are miles behind in that area and here are some historic headlines about their impending solid state breakthrough.....

2023: "Toyota to roll out solid-state-battery EVs as soon as 2027"

2020: "Toyota's Quick-Charging Solid-State Battery Coming in 2025"

2017: "Toyota’s new solid-state battery could make its way to cars by 2020"

2014: "Toyota to Offer High Performance Solid-State Batteries in 2020"

Um. You might want to revise your statement about being miles behind. They hold far more battery patents than any other company.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota- ... y-patents/

"Toyota is the leader, with 1,331 known patents. Panasonic took second place with 445"

They have more than 3 times the number of patents related to solid state batteries than anyone else so it would be a fair statement to make that they will be the first to get over that yardstick.

As far as hybrid technology goes they started it from a consumer point of view and have pretty much led the field since then doing more with smaller batteries.

If you need an example just look at something like the Toyota Yaris Cross. The sort of real world fuel mileage it gets (talking from personal experience as well as I regularly drive one) is impressive especially when you consider how small and low capacity the battery is. Their charging and deployment systems to maximise fuel economy is probably ahead of any of the other companies.

Personally I'd be happy to see Toyota form a partnership of some kind with McLaren, hopefully more so initially on the road car division, to help develop the hybrid systems. It can only make the brand stronger.

No I wont be revising my statement. They might have patents coming out of their ears but ignoring dated tech hybrids that 'self charge' (lies - they charge using fossil fuel) their current EV offerings are woeful. Show me their current EV tech that proves otherwise.

They have been and still are anti EV. Trying to stall consumers and governments (only company congratulating U.K government recent ice ban U-turn) until they catch up after missing the boat. https://www.carscoops.com/2022/12/toyot ... ly-future/

So many stories I could link. This is a good one after new CEO and sudden direction change.... https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota- ... -vehicles/

For respect for the topic at hand I'll refrain from commenting on this again after this reply to stop it going further off topic. If you want to keep the conversation going feel free to create a new topic in the appropriate section and I'll reply there.

Stating that other alternative power train options can also be a path to carbon neutrality is neither controversial nor incorrect.

Hydrogen for example. Another could be cars/trucks that charge via in road or overhead while driving along highways/motorways reducing the need for large and heavy batteries.

The majority of the electricity generated around the world is not even close to carbon neutral or renewable ergo the cars they would charge would also be powered by fossil fuels.

The goal to reduce our carbon footprint as the human race as a whole is more important than focusing on the car industry while ignoring everything else. This includes the mining and recycling of batteries. Heavier tyres used on heavier cars, brakes etc. Increased electrical infrastructure for the charging of a EV dominated world (higher base load and dramatically increased peak load) meaning much higher power generation capacities needed across the world. Yes many of these issues are engineering problems that will get better over time but it would be ignorant to sit there and say everything the CEO has stated is incorrect because they have "missed the boat"

[thestig84]

To be fair, he is right to be concerned that Toyota’s SSB is vapourware - they have been making promises for nearly 2 decades and still have nothing to show for them.

The chances are that the Chinese battery companies will beat them to mass production by many years.

It’s one thing to have a lot of laboratory patents, it’s quite another to be able to manufacture a product.

I'm not sure how anything he posted backs that up, is what I'm getting at.

As I said, it seems apparent from the several manufactures and battery tech companies stating at the same time that they have broken through, that something has happened. I see nothing to think that Toyota are not being honest nor do I for a second think that if this is what it is about, that Zak hasn't spoken to them and got assurances in lieu of a demonstration of the product, I think the guy get's the benefit of the doubt on that front.

As for F1, this is a very big deal and teams will want to get their ducks in line. Get left out of the new battery tech and you are going to have a reasonable handicap.

They don’t even have a drivable demonstrator, that right there is a giant red flag for me. All the statements from Toyota regarding their SSB’s use speculative language, further making me doubt them.

Surely if they’ve really cracked this tech, they could show off lab built prototypes in action.

Thanks Djos. Nice to see someone actually reading what I was saying / linking and not just blindly repeating whatever Toyota PR want you to believe. I'll leave it there if it is getting a little of topic.

[hollus]

The last one/two pages were moved here from the McLaren team thread 2023, hence the constant reference to "off topic", it is more on topic now that it is moved here, so carry on... it is on topic now.

[Andres125sx]

I will say I've been holding back getting one as any new battery tech has the potential to halve the value of a car overnight, which is why I have been following this subject through the past 2 years, otherwise I'd have a Tesla by now lol

Same here. I´m a fan of anything electric, I´m using lithium batteries for around 20-30 years (for rc planes, helis and drones) and after the initial reticence, you quickly realice how many benefits electrics provide over ICEs, with only one drawback, sound But for rc whatever, that´s not a problem since props make a nice noise for itself, but for cars I´m sure I´ll miss it.

But that´s not the drawback holding me back about electric cars, but the battery technology. Lithium batteries are heavy, expensive, and have a very limited lifespan. They were a game changer for RC planes 2-3 decades ago, as they use small batteries and you can afford the price and replacing batteries from time to time. Not with EV tough, so I´m not purchasing any EV, car, motorcycle, or whatever. I good friend owns a Sur-ron Lightbee, and it´s an awesome little motorcycle, but the battery is 1k$ if you find someone to build it himself, or 2-3k$ if you purchase a built one. Too much money, if it would last 10 years ok, but if it last 2-3 years it will be a good period. Too expensive yet


For this reason I understand Toyota pov. I think they´re at same boat, so they only went for hybrids as they use a small battery wich reduce all these drawbacks, but they´re waiting for a better battery technology to jump on full EVs. That, IMHO, is a sensible pov.

Tesla went a different route, since batteries are very expensive, any EV will be expensive, so they manufacture luxury cars so customers pay a high price, but they also get a high end car. More or less


But once any new battery tecnology is released, SSB, LiO, LiS, Na, or whatever, any of those technologies have the potential to eliminate all current drawbacks for batteries, specially price (wich is the most limiting factor), but also sustainability (not using rare materials), and weight (with better energy density, EVs will be lighter than ICEs and then EVs will be much better than ICEs from any point of view)

Lithium batteries were a huge step forward, and current EVs are pioneers, a necessary step before the real change from ICEs to EVs is doable. But some like myself or Toyota don´t want to waste our time and money on that process, so we´re wainting for next step/battery technology before switching to EVs

[Tommy Cookers]

Unfortunately electric motors are already at more than 90% efficiency whereas the old incandescent bulb was less than 5%. Any significant improvement in EV range, mass or cost will need to be in the energy storage system.

Those synch/reluctant motors are like 99.xx efficiency. It's definitely all in the storage and strategy.

yes it's "all in the storage and strategy"

though ....
EV motors aren't 99% efficient (except under fake conditions)
eg synthesizing from DC the continuously-varying (timing and amplitude) motor drive pulse train costs 10-15% losses
(RETRO-EDIT & NOTE TO SELF - the above seems to be WRONG - judging by Greg's post following)

unless maybe there's other information that people can find
the cooling arrangements (of the so-called control electronics) might be a clue

(I just saw some poor account of a new Volvo EV - it seems to have a 'gear' lever)

[Greg Locock]

The waveform synthesis doesn't have to be that inefficient, if you double the number of output FETs you halve the losses, more or less. I've used these in the past
https://www.prohelion.com/shop/wavescul ... ontroller/

[Tommy Cookers]

The waveform synthesis doesn't have to be that inefficient, if you double the number of output FETs you halve the losses, more or less. I've used these in the past
https://www.prohelion.com/shop/wavescul ... ontroller/

well thank you for that - important info
99% controller efficiency in cruise it says

iirc ...
80% efficiency 'battery-in to motor-out' was stated for the cheaper Tesla - that had induction motors
(road EVs now often have part-wound fields ? - avoiding undue reliance on magnet materials sourced by China)