Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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bhall
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Ferraripilot wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:
(For what it's worth, I think maybe both the tunnels and the hub wings on the Red Bull are required to achieve the same goals with Renault exhaust that other teams manage to achieve with Mercedes/Ferrari exhaust without the aid of tunnels and hub wings. That's the price Red Bull and other Renault teams pay for a very fuel-efficient and "driveable" engine with minimal cooling requirements.)

So you're saying their solution possibly is an answer to their exhaust solutions inherent braking instability. That's a valid argument which possibly supports an argument that such brake ducts are just a band aid for a more paramount issue.
I don't know, really. It depends on what you mean here.

The Renault engine is reputed to have the best "driveability" of the current lot. If that's true, and because there's really quite little that separates the performance of all the engines, I think the Renault is (conversationally speaking) 0.X% more responsive to driver inputs. So, when a driver in a Renault-equipped car goes off-throttle, the (relative) loss of exhaust flow happens 0.X% faster than it would on another car. This was not an issue when off-throttle exhaust blowing was allowed, because the difference in exhaust flow on-throttle and off-throttle was minimized. That's not the case anymore.

So, when a Renault car goes off-throttle, the exhaust flow responds in kind, whereas when a Mercedes or Ferrari goes off-throttle, the exhaust flow continues 0.X% longer, which does indeed contribute to braking stability. That discrepancy is significant in a game that measures itself in tenths and hundredths of a second. I think the tunnel and hub wing solutions are a way for Red Bull to minimize losses Mercedes and other non-Renault teams don't suffer, ergo those teams simply may not need those solutions.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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That throttle response time is a function of the flow from throttle body to combustion and then to exhaust tip. That is negligibe among these engines.

The famed Renault drive-ability is due to the torque it makes at lower Rpm. The driver can work the car at lower revs coming out of the corners... Having said that, this could mean steadier gas flow coming from the exhausts at corner exit.
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bhall
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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That first bit makes sense. I'm not so sure I agree with the latter. However, neither are Mercedes-related. [EDIT: Too mod-like; just feels wrong. My apologies.]

Suffices to say, though, I think we've shown that F1 components aren't necessarily plug 'n play, yanno?
Last edited by bhall on 09 Mar 2013, 19:17, edited 1 time in total.

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dren
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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I also thought the Renault was allowed to cold blow because it did so anyway for cooling purposes?
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flmkane
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Guys I'm pretty sure actual brake duct wings would be highly illegal, because they would count as unsprung aero.

Those things are probably just flow conditioners.

jenseneverest
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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dren wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:Frankly, I think the Red Bull "hub wing" is more like a "hub shield" that seeks to guard the exhaust plume from the effects of the airflow around the rotating wheel.
That and I think it conditions the flow for the brake cooling and brake wings at the rear. Red Bull's floviz shows the flow stays nicely attached on the brake wings. You can also see the cutout on the W04 in your picture.
Exacltly, That duct is to direct hot exhast gases away from the tyre's and cool air into the brakes. Any downforce created there will be minimal. There is far more advantage to be have more airflow going over the rear wing bottom plain. Thats the whole principle of a coanda exhast the continuation of air flow to the bits that really matter.

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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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bhallg2k wrote:. I think the tunnel and hub wing solutions are a way for Red Bull to minimize losses Mercedes and other non-Renault teams don't suffer, ergo those teams simply may not need those solutions.

If I might even dovetail to the above comment, such a possible situation tells me that if a non-Renault powered car ie. minus any band aids develops brake ducts to RB9's appeared level of efficiency then they could out-downforce (that's probably not a word) them at the back end which I believe no one sans Mclaren mp4-27 on occasion has been able to do for quite some time. Advantage everyone else?


And no, it doesn't look like a flow conditioner or anything designed with the idea being to push exhaust gases downward (I believe there is a duct below tht which has such an employed purpose), at least that doesn't appear to be its primary function. Rather, it appear its primary function is creating downforce in a very beneficial area just as the multi element brake duct pieces behind it do. Every car has these, just not to this unfathomably intricate extent. The CF layup work must be exhaustive for them.....

Mika1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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What a difference compared with the RBR. I hope they will remove some bodywork, to allow more air going to the diffuser.
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bhall
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Image
W03, Canada

Granted, MGP didn't have a state-of-the-art exhaust solution at the time, but they had similar "wings" nonetheless. So, it's not like such devices, whatever we choose to call them, are foreign to the team.

Really, more is sometimes less, and less is sometimes more. The name of the game is efficiency.

Moreoever, "simplicity is the epitome of sophistication."

Another thing to keep in mind is that, above all else, the brake ducts have to cool the brakes; that's the priority. Everything else is secondary.

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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Good find, albeit W03s version was a massively simple and tiny version of what RB9 uses.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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W04 has a simple, tiny one as well.
they better put on a bigger one, coz they WILL need it.

Notice that the top control arm bearing of the Rb9 also has a small wing built into it. So that's an extra flow conditioning device.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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flmkane wrote:Guys I'm pretty sure actual brake duct wings would be highly illegal, because they would count as unsprung aero.

Those things are probably just flow conditioners.
A brake duct is an aero device is it not? 8)
In all seriousness yes you can have a wing on your brake duct. Teams have multiple airfoils on them in fact with endplates and slots; the whole works.
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wesley123
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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flmkane wrote:Guys I'm pretty sure actual brake duct wings would be highly illegal, because they would count as unsprung aero.

Those things are probably just flow conditioners.
Nah they're brake ducts, they just happen to be looking like wing shaped elements and generate df totally by coincidence
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diego.liv
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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What's the aim of RBR and Lotus V-cut on the rear wing?

Owen.C93
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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diego.liv wrote:What's the aim of RBR and Lotus V-cut on the rear wing?
Ask in the Lotus or RBR thread.
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