2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[djos]

The fuel is irrelevant, all fuel cell types have major limitations that preclude them from being used in high end motor racing applications.

Surely no one is suggesting to use the low power density fuel cells that you reference in your counter-arguments.

MZSO seems to think they are a great idea:

But yet again: fuel cells doesn't just mean hydrogen. More suitable to F1 would be SOFCs or other direct carbon fuel cells. With a more practical fuel.

Solid Oxide Fuel Cells

Solid oxide fuel cells are made up of very thin layer of ceramics. The ceramics used in SOFCs do not become electrically and ionically active until they reach 500-1000 ºC (1060-2120 ºF) and the high temperature enables them to oxidize nearly any fuel, including gasoline, diesel, natural gas, biofuels, hydrogen and even coal gas. The ceramic construction needed to provide stability and reliability makes SOFCs more expensive than other fuel cells. The solid electrolyte is made from a ceramic material called Yttria-Stabilized Zirconia (YSZ). Since the operating temperature is so high, SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand. As such, they are best suited for large applications although research continues to develop lower temperature SOFCs for use in vehicles.

I'm merely pointing out that none of the current FC technologies are anywhere near being practical for use in motorsport applications. I'm not against FC tech at all, I'm just a realist. Personally, I'd like to see FC tech replace Diesel engines in Ships and Freight Trains as soon as possible.

[wuzak]

How do they expect 1000HP then, without putting in the energy into the system? The whole system will be less efficient to begin with...
Perhaps for 2 seconds per lap we'll get that power...

The 1000 hp figure seems to be the expected peak output, but they won't be able to sustain that for more than a lap at a time (my guess), and when the K runs out of juice they'll be trundling around with 650hp till they recoup enough. Lowest average power output throughout the race distance in quite some time and the highest weight, will be a riot to watch

I fail to see how they could sustain 1000 hp for a whole lap.

Maximum deployment would be 13MJ on a lap (start with 4MJ, recover the allowed 9MJ and use that as well). That equates to a maximum possible deployment of 37.1s of the MGUK.

Maximum deployment during normal race running would be 9MJ (that which can be recovered during a lap). That equates to a maximum possible deployment of 25.7s of the MGUK.

And the maximum deployment in one go is the storage capacity of the battery - 4MJ. That lasts 11.7s at full power.

If they manage to get above 300km/h they won't have full power either, as the allowed MGUK power reduces 5kW for every km/h over 300km/h, until 340km/h, after which it is a maximum of 150kW.

Currently they don't have the maximum possible power for very long. But they have close to maximum power for most of a lap, thanks to the MGUH.

[saviour stivala]

Currently they have ‘maximum power’ (ICE+K) for 33.33 seconds of a lap. That 33.33 seconds at full power can be stretched during the lap time wise by programed selection of full deployment at targeted points during a lap thanks to ‘H’. Although ‘H’ to ‘K’ is unlimited, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited by the ERS rules.

[mzso]

The fuel is irrelevant, all fuel cell types have major limitations that preclude them from being used in high end motor racing applications.

https://www.gencellenergy.com/news/comp ... hnologies/

You just wave away anything with some simplistic generalization. You're stuck in bias loop man.

You should be thinking of what might be, instead of what is. I think this that I linked a bunch of times is a good starting point for development.

[mzso]

Solid Oxide Fuel Cells

Solid oxide fuel cells are made up of very thin layer of ceramics. The ceramics used in SOFCs do not become electrically and ionically active until they reach 500-1000 ºC (1060-2120 ºF) and the high temperature enables them to oxidize nearly any fuel, including gasoline, diesel, natural gas, biofuels, hydrogen and even coal gas. The ceramic construction needed to provide stability and reliability makes SOFCs more expensive than other fuel cells. The solid electrolyte is made from a ceramic material called Yttria-Stabilized Zirconia (YSZ). Since the operating temperature is so high, SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand. As such, they are best suited for large applications although research continues to develop lower temperature SOFCs for use in vehicles.

I'm merely pointing out that none of the current FC technologies are anywhere near being practical for use in motorsport applications. I'm not against FC tech at all, I'm just a realist. Personally, I'd like to see FC tech replace Diesel engines in Ships and Freight Trains as soon as possible.

You're not actually providing counter evidence though. Managing high temperatures is borderline trivial for F1. The combustion temperature in F1 engines is much higher than this. I see the temperature requirements as a non-issue.

[djos]

The fuel is irrelevant, all fuel cell types have major limitations that preclude them from being used in high end motor racing applications.

https://www.gencellenergy.com/news/comp ... hnologies/

You just wave away anything with some simplistic generalization. You're stuck in bias loop man.

You should be thinking of what might be, instead of what is. I think this that I linked a bunch of times is a good starting point for development.

No I’m not, I think the tech is super cool, but you are ignoring obvious show stoppers like this:

SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand.

[wuzak]

Currently they have ‘maximum power’ (ICE+K) for 33.33 seconds of a lap. That 33.33 seconds at full power can be stretched during the lap time wise by programed selection of full deployment at targeted points during a lap thanks to ‘H’. Although ‘H’ to ‘K’ is unlimited, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited by the ERS rules.

I think you are contradicting yourself a bit.

You state 33.3s at full power then say the time at full power can be stretched using the MGUH.

Hypotetically, if the MGUH produces 60kW on average when the ICE is at full throttle, and the lap time is 90s and the time at full throttle is 66.7% or 60s, the energy recovered per laps is 5.6MJ (2MJ from the MGUK and 60kW * 60s = 3.6MJ from the MGUH). That would give time at full power as 5600kJ/120kW = 46.7s. That is a good portion of the 60s per lap at full throttle.

We do know that the MGUH usually stops feeding the MGUK at the end of the straights, that's when the warning lights flash, and the MGUH fills the battery.

46.7s is also 10s more time at full power than the 2026 PU rules will allow (start lap with 4MJ stored, recover an additional 9MJ during the lap, using a total of 13MJ).


Also, note that the current PUs have maximum power when ES drives the MGUK and the MGUH is not recovering energy from the turbine (may even be driving the turbo).

[saviour stivala]

Could be the way I expressed myself sounds contradictory. When I said that deployment time can be stretched over a lap I didn’t meant the mandated maximum deployment time per lap (33.33 seconds) could be exceeded. What I meant was that by deploying time portions of the mandated maximum deployment time at selected track point during a lap, the ‘H’ makes it possible to deploy all around the lap on the portions of the lap where the driver is on the throttle. This because as I said, while the ‘H’ to ‘K’ is listed as unlimited (same as ‘H’ to ‘ES’, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited per lap both from ‘ES as well as from ‘H’. The expression (nowadays we can deploy all around the lap) certainly boosts some peoples imaginations.

[Tommy Cookers]

... This because as I said, while the ‘H’ to ‘K’ is listed as unlimited (same as ‘H’ to ‘ES’, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited per lap both from ‘ES as well as from ‘H’. The expression (nowadays we can deploy all around the lap) certainly boosts some peoples imaginations.

IMO the above seems to be incorrect (your post yesterday wasn't incorrect))

there is no mandated limit on the energy per lap supplied directly (not via the ES) by the H machine to the K machine
so there is no mandated limit per lap on the energy supplied by the K machine to the crankshaft

[saviour stivala]

Yes 'H' to 'k' is unlimited but 'K' to crankshaft is limited both in power deployed as will as time per lap.

[Tommy Cookers]

.... 'K' to crankshaft is limited both in power deployed as will as time per lap.

it's not limited (by rule) in time per lap

it's only limited by rule of 4 MJ of energy from ES per lap (equivalent to 120 kW for 33.3 sec if all energy is from ES)
it's not limited by rule on energy from H per lap (there's no rule) - so lap energy is 'unlimited' (by any rules)

so lap K-motoring time is 'unlimited' (by any rules)

[wuzak]

Yes 'H' to 'k' is unlimited but 'K' to crankshaft is limited both in power deployed as will as time per lap.

The MGUK is limited to 120kW to the crankshaft.

But the energy to the crankshaft is not limited.

The energy from the ES to the MGUK is 4MJ. The energy from the MGUK to the ES is 2MJ.

The energy from the MGUH is unlimited to both the ES and MGUK.

Obviously the MGUH to MGUK power is limited by the MGUK power, if it could produce that much.

[vorticism]

Hence Honda's high cycle frequency H to K power transmission.

[yamahasho]

So everyone's thinking they're going to do something like this to counteract the turbo lag issue:



Been used plenty of times in production cars. Or against the regs?

Or perhaps a anti-lag (which I call a blown turbo) by dumping fuel in on deceleration but this sounds implausible because it wastes fuel but who knows.

[Tommy Cookers]

Hence Honda's high cycle frequency H to K power transmission.

no such thing ??
it was K to H - aka 'extra harvest'

EDIT/NOTE TO SELF
as Henry rightly says in the following post - yes there was such a thing
energy from ES to MH/GK repeat cycle to MK aka 'extra deployment'