2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[proteus]

Unfortunately after yesterday I don't have any faith that there won't be (or at least there won't be an attempt at) a championship deciding collision. It really saddens me.
If behind, Hamilton is going to have to hope that his car has enough grunt to make a very clean pass with a very wide berth on that long straight. Trying to overtake at any corner looks like a completely pointless exercise, given what we've witnessed in Saudi and Brazil.

In all honesty what did you expect? Mercedes is so much quicker that Max is forced into diving manouvres and "do or die" moves. Lewis got .3 to.5 advantage on the straight without DRS. Snipped front wing, fully stressed harder tyres from following and still able to smash fastest laps one after another towards the end. It is not in Max blood to stand down and move over. He has gone down fighting - questionable at times, but nothing we havent seen before (Schumacher - Hill, Senna - Prost, etc.) The biggest difference between Lewis and Max is that with Max you know he wont budge, while Lewis will be looking you in your eyes, smile at you and tapping you on the shoulder and stab you in the back. Thats why i stopped cheering for him after his Mclaren career. One thing is certain - Max managed to force Lewis into giving his all. Something he wasnt used to do for quite a long time.

What about other instances? Austria 2019? Baku 2018? etc... Guy is unable to race wheel to wheel. I mean.. He is but he is not even in top class in that regard..

He is not forced to do anything. He is there to race. By the book!

His intentions are clear after this race. IF he has the chance to put you out if it means championship or win the race, he will do that. And he has full support of his team. Team that was very vocal when karma struck him back at Silverstone. But whenever he comes unscathed it is "Let them race, hard racing blah blah blah". That has to stop.

I didnt say he wasnt reckless before, or he wont be again, and you nicely exposed that Lewis is also not as innocent as is portrayed by some. I wrote many times that neither of them have mutual respect for each other and the results are as they are.

[dans79]

Do you penalize the one braking to force the one that needs to overtake or do you penalize the one that drives into the back of the one you refuse to overtake?

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

[Pany]

Unfortunately after yesterday I don't have any faith that there won't be (or at least there won't be an attempt at) a championship deciding collision. It really saddens me.
If behind, Hamilton is going to have to hope that his car has enough grunt to make a very clean pass with a very wide berth on that long straight. Trying to overtake at any corner looks like a completely pointless exercise, given what we've witnessed in Saudi and Brazil.

In all honesty what did you expect? Mercedes is so much quicker that Max is forced into diving manouvres and "do or die" moves. Lewis got .3 to.5 advantage on the straight without DRS. Snipped front wing, fully stressed harder tyres from following and still able to smash fastest laps one after another towards the end. It is not in Max blood to stand down and move over. He has gone down fighting - questionable at times, but nothing we havent seen before (Schumacher - Hill, Senna - Prost, etc.) The biggest difference between Lewis and Max is that with Max you know he wont budge, while Lewis will be looking you in your eyes, smile at you and tapping you on the shoulder and stab you in the back. Thats why i stopped cheering for him after his Mclaren career. One thing is certain - Max managed to force Lewis into giving his all. Something he wasnt used to do for quite a long time.

Finally somebody who understands what s happening

[Wouter]

Do you penalize the one braking to force the one that needs to overtake or do you penalize the one that drives into the back of the one you refuse to overtake?

[Wouter]

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

???
Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

[proteus]

Do you penalize the one braking to force the one that needs to overtake or do you penalize the one that drives into the back of the one you refuse to overtake?

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

It was not as blatant. Why would a 7time world champion who is in F1 for 14 years decide that it is a good idea to close almost to a point blank behind a slowing car not even knowing why was he slowing down. Imagine Max having a bursting engine and Lewis cruising behind to get boiling hot oil thrown into his face...for a very spatial type of driver, he did quite a mistake in that moment.

[El Scorchio]

In all honesty what did you expect? Mercedes is so much quicker that Max is forced into diving manouvres and "do or die" moves. Lewis got .3 to.5 advantage on the straight without DRS. Snipped front wing, fully stressed harder tyres from following and still able to smash fastest laps one after another towards the end. It is not in Max blood to stand down and move over. He has gone down fighting - questionable at times, but nothing we havent seen before (Schumacher - Hill, Senna - Prost, etc.) The biggest difference between Lewis and Max is that with Max you know he wont budge, while Lewis will be looking you in your eyes, smile at you and tapping you on the shoulder and stab you in the back. Thats why i stopped cheering for him after his Mclaren career. One thing is certain - Max managed to force Lewis into giving his all. Something he wasnt used to do for quite a long time.

Being in a car with a pace deficit is zero excuse for behaving like that. You didn't see Ocon doing that to Bottas, or indeed anyone doing it to Verstappen in the races he had to make places through the field. You barely ever see anyone do what Verstappen did in Brazil or multiple times in SA. You cannot justify that behaviour by saying he was in a slower car or he was desperate.

Depends how soft the spectators and drivers became. Years back this might end up with a fist fight and possible mutual respect after that or atleast avoidance. But in this tender times where even an improper sneeze might be ofensive, this wont happen and thats why them both are reckless as they are. Even Lewis is not spotless in this, no matter how much are you trying to find excuses for him. And yes, Max acts out of desperation and i can understand that, since my blood is also red and i can feel his pain. Was Senna any different? Lots of incident happened troughout his whole career when he pushed to the last limit - even Brundle stated that it often went to a point where one of the drivers would not be able to get trough.

I’m not making any excuses for Hamilton. Not that he needs any made for him from yesterday anyway.

I fail to see how the fact you don’t seem to like the state of the world/F1 today in any way qualifies how Verstappen chose to behave yesterday. It’s ok to drive like that if you have a punch up afterwards?!

[Roo]

Go drive down the road two meter from the car infront at 50kmh and react to the stopping in a moment when there is no reason to.

The absolute logic of some.

Couple things to consider: VER does not know that HAM didn't get the message that he's letting him by. From the initial lift off, typically the other driver would have flew by and if HAM got the message, he would have gone by as soon as VER lifted. VER lifted and probably don't understand or wondering why HAM is not passing and started to brake and HAM still don't pass. Then you have DRS line and probably frustration at this point. I think not communicate to Merc first that RC is asking VER to give back position is probably the biggest issue.

You logic seems to imply that it's RCs fault MV jumped on the brakes when LH was right behind him. Lets not understate the jumping on the brakes as lifting, it wasn't. You seem to also suggest the issue is also the "strategic" intent and MV mis-use of the DRS line.

You also forget, MV weaving, taking the middle of the road, all of which divert from the norms following an instruction from RC. If anything it fits with what we've seen from MV before and not a RC issue.

[cooken]

Quoting to give credit to Phil for collecting these. Want to keep them visible for full effect.

Max during post-race interview:
"I was on the right but he didn't want to overtake and then we touched. So I don't understand what happened there."

I guess he conveniently left out the part where he meandered to the middle of the track while slowing down. Imagine being on a 2-lane motorway, closing in on someone going well under the speed limit, who then starts slowly drifting into the passing lane? Most of us (I hope) would hold back thinking wtf is this person doing?

[zeph]

It’s interesting to see how much nationality plays into this. I’m a Dutch expat and my cousin is up in arms about this. He simply cannot understand why Verstappen got a penalty and Hamilton did not. I’m sure the commentary on Dutch TV plays into this as well, because it seems like much of the country doesn’t get it either.

I watched the whole thing on F1TV and I think Felipe Massa said it best on the post-race show.

[zeph]

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

???
Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

lol

You just found the world’s silliest argument.

There are speed limits on public roads, maybe we should have those on circuits as well!

[Wouter]

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

???
Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

lol

You just found the world’s silliest argument.

There are speed limits on public roads, maybe we should have those on circuits as well!

I reacted on @Dans79 "On and off the race track ......" Public road = off the racetrack, isn't it?

[dans79]

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

???
Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

It's called tailgating here as well, and if you get caught doing it, it's also a non trivial fine. If you brake check someone because they are tailgating you, you will also get a fine.

However in racing, the rules are slightly different, because it's expected the cars will be in close proximity to each other. For example in NASCAR they are touching at times.

For example, Mazepin wasn't penalized for running into the back of Russell because they are expected to be close together at times. Russell didn't get a penalty either, because he wasn't doing anything intentional.


This is why the international sporting code has the section about blocking and hindering a driver behind. Because they are expected to be in close proximity and the driver behind can end up in a situation where they simply do not have the time to react to something the car ahead is doing.

The reason given for Max's penalty
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... lision.pdf

Offence Breach of Article 2 (e) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code.

The associated section of the sporting code!
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... e_2021.pdf

e) It is not permitted to drive any car
unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a
manner deemed potentially dangerous to
other drivers at any time.

If Max had continued to slow because he let of the gas and Lewis ran into the back of him, then Lewis would have most likely been deemed responsible under Article 2D Chapter IV.

Causing a collision, repetition of serious
mistakes or the appearance of a lack of
control over the car (such as leaving the
track) will be reported to the Stewards and
may entail the imposition of penalties up to
and including the disqualification of any
driver concerned.

However, Max jabbing the brakes is what made him responsible.

[El Scorchio]

On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.

???
Why does someone on the public road who drives very close behind another receive a very, very high fine?!
Because one should never drive close behind another person, because you can run into him/her if that person suddenly brakes.
Here it is called tailgating and is forbidden.

lol

You just found the world’s silliest argument.

There are speed limits on public roads, maybe we should have those on circuits as well!

Ridiculous isn’t it. To try and compare driving on a public road and the regulations of doing so to a Formula 1 race where the point is to try and get as close as possible behind someone before trying to pass them.

Which is precisely why you DO NOT unexpectedly stamp on the brakes in an F1 race with a car close behind you and why it is so hugely frowned upon. It causes accidents and endangers people.

[ArcticWolfie]

It’s interesting to see how much nationality plays into this. I’m a Dutch expat and my cousin is up in arms about this. He simply cannot understand why Verstappen got a penalty and Hamilton did not. I’m sure the commentary on Dutch TV plays into this as well, because it seems like much of the country doesn’t get it either.

I watched the whole thing on F1TV and I think Felipe Massa said it best on the post-race show.

Wasn't much commentary about it, the Dutch commentator couldn't believe his eyes. He reacted on Wolff's reaction instead, "does this mean Hamilton refused the overtake and thus counted as giving the position back?".

Not sure what Crofty and Brundle/Button had to say about this... normally I listen to the English F1TV stream but this time I did not.