2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

[Ryar]

Hamilton did not aim for Alonsos rear tyre.
Alonso did not run him off track, he did not close the gap and left the space.
Hamilton had every right to go for that bit of track and was almost level towards the brake tap/turn in point.

Hmmmm....still it is a pity that Ham's front wheel did not touch the rear wheel a bit harder. Would have ended Alo in the runout and Ham right behind Sainz, Vet and Oco after a SC. Would have been fun with Ham fans showing in the frame by frame analysis why he is not at fault and argument why it would have been ok to win the race like this.
We are missing a lot here...

For a moment, I thought Alonso would be in the barrier with that Signature Hamilton move.

[Stormblessed]

Just a random interesting (or stupid) thought. When a car is out of position at the start, they redo the formation lap right? If that's the case, and if Hamilton was out of position on the grid in last week's second restart, would F1/FIA do the formation lap again, say with just one car? What does the rules say?

[Jolle]

Haven’t got much time for a lot of the stuff that’s being brought up. But I take issue with you mentioning “too ill to be racing” as part of your delusional bullshittery list. I think I’ve outlined my reasoning, it’s cogent and NOT based on fandom. I am concerned for him. Always easy to say afterwards what the right call is as it’s a risk based assessment. Either way I don’t want to be a championship decided by something like that. It would be tarnished.

But I would HATE to see a nasty accident because a driver is clearly unwell. And with ANY top level athletics, if you’re not 100% mistakes happen. You just aren’t as sharp.

And being unstable on your feet, I’d not be flying my airplane, I’d be sent home by other pilots and not allowed to be near any machinery.

I agree. Your approach was valuable in that you raised the question of whether he should be racing and outlined your reasoning (which was consistent and neutral). Sadly, not everyone else makes the same careful case nor uses qualified statements.

Is there a physical (and mental?) fitness test that drivers have to pass before each GP? If not, should there be? I don't even know if there is a concussion protocol (I assume there must be)?

We've seen drivers, in the past, have to be helped out of the car due to exhaustion/dehydration. Whilst it looks heroic (and probably is, given the conditions under which they've just performed), I think you are right to raise the point that having people driving in such a condition is fundamentally dangerous. Would it be possible to have in car monitoring which would allow the course /team doctor to be able to track the condition of the driver?

Matthew Carter mentioned something, in the recent Missed Apex podcast, on a parallel line of thinking around having a more health-focussed approach when he was managing Lotus (e.g. mandatory gym sessions, scheduled electrolyte refills, etc).

Drivers have a medical.

This would open up a can of worms, not just in Motorsport but sport in general. A small cold, bit of flu or an upset stomage would deem to unable to participate (these are very similar to what will happen in your body when you’re experiencing long COVID types of complains)

Being a bit I’ll, or under the weather, or just ate to little, for anybody that is into sports, really comes in to play right after you’ve been active. You crash. Reserves feel gone, etc. It’s not like having an heart attack on something on track.

[Andres125sx]

On the end of lap 48, Lewis Hamilton was 15.8 seconds behind Fernando Alonso. By the middle sector of lap 54, he was within a second.

That is a gain of 15 seconds within approximately five and a half laps, or 2.73 seconds per lap.

After Hamilton overtook Alonso, he pulled 13 seconds in 5 laps. That is 2.60 seconds per lap. This is despite Hamilton wasting time overtaking and then defending from Sainz.

How on earth it took Hamilton 11 laps to overtake Alonso, I will never know, but Alonso does know:

“Hamilton was at least 2.5s faster, he just kept making the same mistakes and I took advantage of it" - Alonso on Spanish TV after the race.

This.

How is this equal to 3 seconds a lap faster?
Also what are the 3 laps before he was racing Alonso and what are the lap times of both?

Second how much of a time difference is required to overtake at this track.. And why is that the Williams and Haas were so dificult to overtake by the others?
I'm guessing the narative is to say that Hamilton is an error prone driver who doesnt know how to overtake? Okay then.

Ringo, you´re taking it the wrong way. Nobody is saying such a stupidity. Anyone claiming Hamilton does not know how to overtake will only expose himself.

The point is the contrary, Alonso was awesome holding Lewis back for that long because Lewis was almost 3 seconds a lap faster, and also because Lewis is one of the best overtakers, so what Alonso did was simply impressive. That´s all, none is bashing Hamilton, but praising Alonso. I hope that´s not a problem for you

[Andres125sx]

And while Alonso implies he raised his game for Lewis. What is he normally doing, coasting? Occupting a seat just for cash?

What?? Alonso never implied anything similar to that. Actually he said the contrary, Lewis should have passed him sooner but he was making small mistakes in last corner wich ruined his chances.

At the spanish TV he was asked if while in the battle he was thinking about his similar battle with Schumacher in Imola 2005, but he said it was not the case because Schumacher was around 4 tenths faster than him, while Lewis was 2.5 seconds faster, so he was expecting a quick pass

[Andres125sx]

Really? It was alonso who moved further over to the right onto Hamiltons line. I swear some people dont even watch the races yet still feel the urge to make incorrect comments

Correct. But they didn´t crash, so it´s obvious there was enough space for that move. They only need to leave a car width, not half the track

[Ryar]

Haven’t got much time for a lot of the stuff that’s being brought up. But I take issue with you mentioning “too ill to be racing” as part of your delusional bullshittery list. I think I’ve outlined my reasoning, it’s cogent and NOT based on fandom. I am concerned for him. Always easy to say afterwards what the right call is as it’s a risk based assessment. Either way I don’t want to be a championship decided by something like that. It would be tarnished.

But I would HATE to see a nasty accident because a driver is clearly unwell. And with ANY top level athletics, if you’re not 100% mistakes happen. You just aren’t as sharp.

And being unstable on your feet, I’d not be flying my airplane, I’d be sent home by other pilots and not allowed to be near any machinery.

I agree. Your approach was valuable in that you raised the question of whether he should be racing and outlined your reasoning (which was consistent and neutral). Sadly, not everyone else makes the same careful case nor uses qualified statements.

Is there a physical (and mental?) fitness test that drivers have to pass before each GP? If not, should there be? I don't even know if there is a concussion protocol (I assume there must be)?

We've seen drivers, in the past, have to be helped out of the car due to exhaustion/dehydration. Whilst it looks heroic (and probably is, given the conditions under which they've just performed), I think you are right to raise the point that having people driving in such a condition is fundamentally dangerous. Would it be possible to have in car monitoring which would allow the course /team doctor to be able to track the condition of the driver?

Matthew Carter mentioned something, in the recent Missed Apex podcast, on a parallel line of thinking around having a more health-focussed approach when he was managing Lotus (e.g. mandatory gym sessions, scheduled electrolyte refills, etc).

Drivers have a medical.

This would open up a can of worms, not just in Motorsport but sport in general. A small cold, bit of flu or an upset stomage would deem to unable to participate (these are very similar to what will happen in your body when you’re experiencing long COVID types of complains)

Being a bit I’ll, or under the weather, or just ate to little, for anybody that is into sports, really comes in to play right after you’ve been active. You crash. Reserves feel gone, etc. It’s not like having an heart attack on something on track.

Isn't this a matter of serious consideration to what happened in British GP? A driver, self admittedly, not fully fit, caused a serious accident.

[El Scorchio]

Just a random interesting (or stupid) thought. When a car is out of position at the start, they redo the formation lap right? If that's the case, and if Hamilton was out of position on the grid in last week's second restart, would F1/FIA do the formation lap again, say with just one car? What does the rules say?

Such a good question. Potentially yes. Would he get a penalty as well? I guess he was lucky as it was obvious what position he was meant to be starting from, but if you're somewhere in the middle of the grid it could be quite easy to slip up, especially if a big part of your reference is remembering who you are lining up behind!

Edit- however in that specific situation, it probably wouldn't matter as no matter where the one car lined up they wouldn't be getting any advantage or anyone else getting a disadvantage, as the cars in the pit lane can only be released after every car has gone past. You'd assume the race director and stewards would just let it go.

[Andres125sx]

Really? It was alonso who moved further over to the right onto Hamiltons line. I swear some people dont even watch the races yet still feel the urge to make incorrect comments

Absolutely agree.
On the contrary, I don't think you'd have seen any other two drivers able to have such a fantastic, close, prolonged battle without someone coming a cropper. Magnificent racing from the pair of them.

Exactly!

Seasoned drivers like Alonso and Hamilton know how to battle within the limits, it was a joy to watch

Even when Alonso made a mistake wich allowed Lewis to pass, wich was deceiving for me as he never makes that sort of mistakes, at least in the past

[Tvetovnato]

It is amazing how people are looking to pick holes in the Hamilton/Alonso duel or find some fault in one or the other during it for what purposes I just don't know. Both drivers were fair throughout, both came through unscathed, and it was a joy to watch. Can we all really not just appreciate it objectively?

Yeah well didn’t you know that something cannot happen these days without there needing to be a huge discussion about it? There always must be someone at fault, someone who did something wrong, or the best part, some huge conspiracy behind the happenings. Simple driving mistakes or racing incidents is simply not allowed to happen, not on F1 sofa experts shifts at least!

[subcritical71]

Isn't this a matter of serious consideration to what happened in British GP? A driver, self admittedly, not fully fit, caused a serious accident.

No. One persons self admitted 'not fully fit' is another 'I may be coming down with something'. Linking the accident to how he was subjectively feeling is a pretty long stretch. Especially since he was able to complete a race distance (minus a few laps) after the incident. In other words, even in a so called 'not fully fit' state he was able to win a race with some of the best drivers in the world.

[Stormblessed]

Just a random interesting (or stupid) thought. When a car is out of position at the start, they redo the formation lap right? If that's the case, and if Hamilton was out of position on the grid in last week's second restart, would F1/FIA do the formation lap again, say with just one car? What does the rules say?

Such a good question. Potentially yes. Would he get a penalty as well? I guess he was lucky as it was obvious what position he was meant to be starting from, but if you're somewhere in the middle of the grid it could be quite easy to slip up, especially if a big part of your reference is remembering who you are lining up behind!

Edit- however in that specific situation, it probably wouldn't matter as no matter where the one car lined up they wouldn't be getting any advantage or anyone else getting a disadvantage, as the cars in the pit lane can only be released after every car has gone past. You'd assume the race director and stewards would just let it go.

Thank you.. Watching Peter Windsor's race review video prompted this question. Agreed that there won't be any advantage/disadvantage to any drivers. Since he was in pole position slot, I guess he would have been penalized.

That was probably one grey area they could have utilized to nullify the damage - Ross Brawn/MSC would have grabbed it with both hands. Glad it didn't happen, otherwise this forum would be even more in tatters about Mercedes/FIA collusion .

[basti313]

Just a random interesting (or stupid) thought. When a car is out of position at the start, they redo the formation lap right? If that's the case, and if Hamilton was out of position on the grid in last week's second restart, would F1/FIA do the formation lap again, say with just one car? What does the rules say?

Yes, new formation lap. But: Pit lane would stay closed and penalty.

[basti313]

Just a random interesting (or stupid) thought. When a car is out of position at the start, they redo the formation lap right? If that's the case, and if Hamilton was out of position on the grid in last week's second restart, would F1/FIA do the formation lap again, say with just one car? What does the rules say?

Such a good question. Potentially yes. Would he get a penalty as well? I guess he was lucky as it was obvious what position he was meant to be starting from, but if you're somewhere in the middle of the grid it could be quite easy to slip up, especially if a big part of your reference is remembering who you are lining up behind!

Edit- however in that specific situation, it probably wouldn't matter as no matter where the one car lined up they wouldn't be getting any advantage or anyone else getting a disadvantage, as the cars in the pit lane can only be released after every car has gone past. You'd assume the race director and stewards would just let it go.

Thank you.. Watching Peter Windsor's race review video prompted this question. Agreed that there won't be any advantage/disadvantage to any drivers. Since he was in pole position slot, I guess he would have been penalized.

That was probably one grey area they could have utilized to nullify the damage - Ross Brawn/MSC would have grabbed it with both hands. Glad it didn't happen, otherwise this forum would be even more in tatters about Mercedes/FIA collusion .

How that? With putting the car out of position he would have been on the last position...in the pitlane.

[El Scorchio]

Just a random interesting (or stupid) thought. When a car is out of position at the start, they redo the formation lap right? If that's the case, and if Hamilton was out of position on the grid in last week's second restart, would F1/FIA do the formation lap again, say with just one car? What does the rules say?

Such a good question. Potentially yes. Would he get a penalty as well? I guess he was lucky as it was obvious what position he was meant to be starting from, but if you're somewhere in the middle of the grid it could be quite easy to slip up, especially if a big part of your reference is remembering who you are lining up behind!

Edit- however in that specific situation, it probably wouldn't matter as no matter where the one car lined up they wouldn't be getting any advantage or anyone else getting a disadvantage, as the cars in the pit lane can only be released after every car has gone past. You'd assume the race director and stewards would just let it go.

Thank you.. Watching Peter Windsor's race review video prompted this question. Agreed that there won't be any advantage/disadvantage to any drivers. Since he was in pole position slot, I guess he would have been penalized.

That was probably one grey area they could have utilized to nullify the damage - Ross Brawn/MSC would have grabbed it with both hands. Glad it didn't happen, otherwise this forum would be even more in tatters about Mercedes/FIA collusion .

TBH it's just nice to have something fresh to discuss/debate!