McLaren MCL36

[godlameroso]

There's no real outwash going on. The diffuser walls are straight, and actually tuck inwards at the base.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMSIv6yXoAg ... ame=medium

So that flow vis in the Ferrari diffuser, it's not going outwards? It looks like it's outwashing, especially at the top of the diffuser. Are my eyes deceiving me and is that actually inwash?

Diffuser designed for outwash looks like this:

https://preview.redd.it/m817scvambaz.pn ... f69f323b82

That sort of curvature of the walls is no longer allowed.

Look how wide the diffuser is relative to the brake ducts.

https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... tail-1.jpg

Yeah, I get the regulations try to limit it, but they can't stop it, just like endplates don't stop wingtip vortices from happening. You can't regulate physics into compliance, and if teams get more performance from combining outwash with upwash they're going to figure out a way to induce it within the regulations. The previous regulations limited diffuser upwash, so the teams used outwash to maximize the expansion ratio after the diffuser kick line.

The new regulations want to encourage upwash, so they give you more diffuser height, and limit the outward radius of the side fences to practically flat. Even then, you see an outward taper on the inner wall to encourage outwash. At the top of the diffuser where the outwash isn't as tightly regulated, most teams are willingly exchanging diffuser volume for more outwash potential, because the upwash expansion is too great and causes separation.

[PlatinumZealot]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMSIv6yXoAg ... ame=medium

So that flow vis in the Ferrari diffuser, it's not going outwards? It looks like it's outwashing, especially at the top of the diffuser. Are my eyes deceiving me and is that actually inwash?

Diffuser designed for outwash looks like this:

https://preview.redd.it/m817scvambaz.pn ... f69f323b82

That sort of curvature of the walls is no longer allowed.

Look how wide the diffuser is relative to the brake ducts.

https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... tail-1.jpg

Yeah, I get the regulations try to limit it, but they can't stop it, just like endplates don't stop wingtip vortices from happening. You can't regulate physics into compliance, and if teams get more performance from combining outwash with upwash they're going to figure out a way to induce it within the regulations. The previous regulations limited diffuser upwash, so the teams used outwash to maximize the expansion ratio after the diffuser kick line.

The new regulations want to encourage upwash, so they give you more diffuser height, and limit the outward radius of the side fences to practically flat. Even then, you see an outward taper on the inner wall to encourage outwash. At the top of the diffuser where the outwash isn't as tightly regulated, most teams are willingly exchanging diffuser volume for more outwash potential, because the upwash expansion is too great and causes separation.

The diffuser is not an outwash diffuser. No team has restricted the size of their diffusers to make a trumpet shape. There is no significant outward taper on the inner wall.

What you see is incidental and best use of the geometry available. The outward curve on the flow vis paint is because the flow under the plank must sweep up with the bottom of the diffuser/gearbox area. Because this flow is coming upward it pushes the flow from the sides outward. You also have inwash from the floor "pinching" the flow laterally as it enters thw diffuser so you see that curve in the flow Vis paint. But the intent of the design is not an outwash diffuser. The walls are parallel.

[godlameroso]

Diffuser designed for outwash looks like this:

https://preview.redd.it/m817scvambaz.pn ... f69f323b82

That sort of curvature of the walls is no longer allowed.

Look how wide the diffuser is relative to the brake ducts.

https://cdn-4.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... tail-1.jpg

Yeah, I get the regulations try to limit it, but they can't stop it, just like endplates don't stop wingtip vortices from happening. You can't regulate physics into compliance, and if teams get more performance from combining outwash with upwash they're going to figure out a way to induce it within the regulations. The previous regulations limited diffuser upwash, so the teams used outwash to maximize the expansion ratio after the diffuser kick line.

The new regulations want to encourage upwash, so they give you more diffuser height, and limit the outward radius of the side fences to practically flat. Even then, you see an outward taper on the inner wall to encourage outwash. At the top of the diffuser where the outwash isn't as tightly regulated, most teams are willingly exchanging diffuser volume for more outwash potential, because the upwash expansion is too great and causes separation.

The diffuser is not an outwash diffuser. No team has restricted the size of their diffusers to make a trumpet shape. There is no significant outward taper on the inner wall.

What you see is incidental and best use of the geometry available. The outward curve on the flow vis paint is because the flow under the plank must sweep up with the bottom of the diffuser/gearbox area. Because this flow is coming upward it pushes the flow from the sides outward. You also have inwash from the floor "pinching" the flow laterally as it enters thw diffuser so you see that curve in the flow Vis paint. But the intent of the design is not an outwash diffuser. The walls are parallel.

LMAO you literally just said don't believe my lying eyes. The only reason the flow turns up is because of 2 counter rotating vortices, there's nothing incidental about the outwash, it's the natural flow pattern of an inwashing vortex that starts after the edge wing. It goes in under the floor then turns up then out.

The rule makers wanted outwash from the rear wing because it enhances the upwash from the diffuser, that's why they baked so much outwash potential into the beamwing, the endplates and the rear wing. Enhanced upwash from the diffuser means less wake for the following car.

This place is hilariously wrong so often, that calling it a technical forum is a misnomer. Since we can just say any ol' thing I figure I may as well join in the fun. In any case, I'm glad the hubris caught up to Mercedes, they deserve it.

[djos]

G, please stop pretending you know it all, it’s tiresome AF! Clearly if you are the one “seeing” something that isn’t there, then you are the problem!

[diffuser]

I figured the space between the brake winglets and the diffuser was add purposely by FIA to limit diffuser horizontal outwash. Think the CFD images kind of show that.

[godlameroso]

G, please stop pretending you know it all, it’s tiresome AF! Clearly if you are the one “seeing” something that isn’t there, then you are the problem!

I don't know it all, but I know what I'm talking about here, you see shapes, I see the airflow. You think the shapes and the airflow are the same, they're not, I show evidence they're not, you show no evidence whatsoever, yet I'm wrong. Pathetic.

[godlameroso]

I figured the space between the brake winglets and the diffuser was add purposely by FIA to limit diffuser horizontal outwash. Think the CFD images kind of show that.


https://i.ibb.co/VLhYhF4/comp1- ... m.jpg

There's little to no outwash beneath the rear crash structure, at and above the height of the rear crash structure, you can go nuts. You'll never see that with mickey mouse cfd though.

[diffuser]

G, please stop pretending you know it all, it’s tiresome AF! Clearly if you are the one “seeing” something that isn’t there, then you are the problem!

I don't know it all, but I know what I'm talking about here, you see shapes, I see the airflow. You think the shapes and the airflow are the same, they're not, I show evidence they're not, you show no evidence whatsoever, yet I'm wrong. Pathetic.

Your Demeanour has changed since I first chatted with you, I don't know how many years ago now. You always seem primed for a fight now.

[godlameroso]

G, please stop pretending you know it all, it’s tiresome AF! Clearly if you are the one “seeing” something that isn’t there, then you are the problem!

I don't know it all, but I know what I'm talking about here, you see shapes, I see the airflow. You think the shapes and the airflow are the same, they're not, I show evidence they're not, you show no evidence whatsoever, yet I'm wrong. Pathetic.

Your Demeanour has changed since I first chatted with you, I don't know how many years ago now. You always seem primed for a fight now.

Yeah it happens when people dogpile you, all that time I've spent boxing probably doesn't help.

[djos]

I don't know it all, but I know what I'm talking about here, you see shapes, I see the airflow. You think the shapes and the airflow are the same, they're not, I show evidence they're not, you show no evidence whatsoever, yet I'm wrong. Pathetic.

Your Demeanour has changed since I first chatted with you, I don't know how many years ago now. You always seem primed for a fight now.

Yeah it happens when people dogpile you, all that time I've spent boxing probably doesn't help.

Your attitude rubs ppl the wrong way and combining that with your habit of tilting at windmills…..

Case in point, you have more negative feedback (151) than many members have positive feedback!

[Andi76]

I figured the space between the brake winglets and the diffuser was add purposely by FIA to limit diffuser horizontal outwash. Think the CFD images kind of show that.


https://i.ibb.co/VLhYhF4/comp1- ... m.jpg

There's little to no outwash beneath the rear crash structure, at and above the height of the rear crash structure, you can go nuts. You'll never see that with mickey mouse cfd though.

So - just to be sure that i do understand you properly - you are telling that your naked eye can see more than "Mickey-Mouse"-CFD? A Mickey-Mouse CFD that, by the way, seems to confirm some things that professional aerodynamicists said about the W13 and the F1-75?

I do not want to get into any discussion about what was said about demeanour and something i was not involved in - but its noticeable that as soon as someone does not agree with you, you get rude and almost abusive. Whether your are right or wrong - thats not really the right way to behave. Sorry if i have to say that, but its something that becomes obvious.

And if "this place is so hilariously wrong so often" and "calling it a technical forum is a misnomer", in your opinion- why are you attending it on an almost daily basis? Sorry if i ask, but i do not understand this, because if there is a technical forum that so often is hilariously wrong and not worth calling it a technical forum - i would not attend it on a daily basis. I would not attend it at all, because there is not much i could learn.

[Emag]

I figured the space between the brake winglets and the diffuser was add purposely by FIA to limit diffuser horizontal outwash. Think the CFD images kind of show that.


https://i.ibb.co/VLhYhF4/comp1- ... m.jpg

There's little to no outwash beneath the rear crash structure, at and above the height of the rear crash structure, you can go nuts. You'll never see that with mickey mouse cfd though.

So - just to be sure that i do understand you properly - you are telling that your naked eye can see more than "Mickey-Mouse"-CFD? A Mickey-Mouse CFD that, by the way, seems to confirm some things that professional aerodynamicists said about the W13 and the F1-75?

I do not want to get into any discussion about what was said about demeanour and something i was not involved in - but its noticeable that as soon as someone does not agree with you, you get rude and almost abusive. Whether your are right or wrong - thats not really the right way to behave. Sorry if i have to say that, but its something that becomes obvious.

And if "this place is so hilariously wrong so often" and "calling it a technical forum is a misnomer", in your opinion- why are you attending it on an almost daily basis? Sorry if i ask, but i do not understand this, because if there is a technical forum that so often is hilariously wrong and not worth calling it a technical forum - i would not attend it on a daily basis. I would not attend it at all, because there is not much i could learn.

Agreed. He was getting continously more obnoxious with every post, but I did not want to make a reply about it hoping it would stop at some point.

Meaningless discussion contaminating this thread because some guy believes he is so above everyone, that his eyes are more accurate than the actual rules.

[KingHamilton01]

I figured the space between the brake winglets and the diffuser was add purposely by FIA to limit diffuser horizontal outwash. Think the CFD images kind of show that.


https://i.ibb.co/VLhYhF4/comp1- ... m.jpg

There's little to no outwash beneath the rear crash structure, at and above the height of the rear crash structure, you can go nuts. You'll never see that with mickey mouse cfd though.

So - just to be sure that i do understand you properly - you are telling that your naked eye can see more than "Mickey-Mouse"-CFD? A Mickey-Mouse CFD that, by the way, seems to confirm some things that professional aerodynamicists said about the W13 and the F1-75?

I do not want to get into any discussion about what was said about demeanour and something i was not involved in - but its noticeable that as soon as someone does not agree with you, you get rude and almost abusive. Whether your are right or wrong - thats not really the right way to behave. Sorry if i have to say that, but its something that becomes obvious.

And if "this place is so hilariously wrong so often" and "calling it a technical forum is a misnomer", in your opinion- why are you attending it on an almost daily basis? Sorry if i ask, but i do not understand this, because if there is a technical forum that so often is hilariously wrong and not worth calling it a technical forum - i would not attend it on a daily basis. I would not attend it at all, because there is not much i could learn.

On recent experiences I think I am inclined to agree with you! full of big mouth's on here pretending they know better than all the rest of us.

[Vanja #66]

So - just to be sure that i do understand you properly - you are telling that your naked eye can see more than "Mickey-Mouse"-CFD? A Mickey-Mouse CFD that, by the way, seems to confirm some things that professional aerodynamicists said about the W13 and the F1-75?

Cfd-eyes are an in-joke of this forum. Some continue to fuel that particular fire... No matter how much effort you put trying to explain just one little thing. Again. And again. And again...

[SmallSoldier]

2 different front wing configurations for Miami:



Vía: Albert Fabrega