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The fact remains that you are not going to leave a lot of money at your gas station with that car.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
the 1l car is long pending considering VW and Audi had real 3 l cars in their portfolio already 10 years ago without much high tech (if one considers 3cyl ,turbo,startstop,automated gearshift/clutch is considered as not so advanced) Nobody wanted those ...a Lupo 3L sells at around 2K€ these days the A2 3l is a bit more expensive though..
Why would anyone think the car needs to be extremely expensive? there is no big battery involved so the cost driver is?
Gordon Murray has showed already lightweight car fabrication is not necessarily expensive-and hopefully Piech and Winterkorn have shot down all development guys mentioning the word carbonfibre in the development of this car...
WhiteBlue wrote:The fact remains that you are not going to leave a lot of money at your gas station with that car.
That has no relevance if the car has a cost of over $40k. It would take you years (literally) to make up the difference in fuel savings. It's not that good of a deal overall.
that implie constant price for fuel...we have not seen this for years now.break-even might be sooner than one might hope...
Is there a price tag already?
Yes we can pick a high number and say uneconomic, or pick a low one and say economic. Its just plucking numbers from the air. Also fuel & car taxation vary and congestion/pollution policies will also make a difference in many cities.
Anyway, all emergent technologies seem over priced before they become mainstream. Mobile phones in the 1980's are a good example. EV cars will be no different.
Fuel prices haven't had a downward trend in I don't know how long, and it'll never get cheaper as long as the US Government keeps bombing people and being the general asshole sticking its nose into everything that it has done for the last 50 years. Recouping that initial investment will take years to achieve. Getting people to let go of their gas guzzling V8's and general illogical desire for bigger and heavier cars isn't going away (here int the US among the Baby Boomer generation anyway). I would love to have a diesel Mazda 3 hatchback here in the US, but there isn't much hope or evidence of it coming to our shores, the EU seems to be getting all the attention on that front. The only alternative for the US car buyers is a stupid Prius, or a VW diesel. While I am extremely impressed with the offerings VW has here, (a friend of mine has one and driving 75-80mph on a 400 mile trip we maintained 40+ MPG in his diesel Golf), I almost bought one (financial trouble hit me as it did many others). Having only two alternatives isn't that great. The Prius is a useless fad to me, not to mention the horrible battery tech we seem to not be able to improve, I'd rather have a diesel to drive around in. It's got boatloads of torque, it's smooth, quiet, and nearly as efficient as the Prius in every aspect. I guess I'll have to make due with my '76 MGB for a small fuel efficient everyday car until someone steps up to the plate and goes after their market share here (meaning Mazda for starters). You can't go to a VW dealership and peruse the diesels they have for sale because they are all already spoken for. Paying $40k+ for a car that gets that kind of mileage is useless to me because 1.) I don't have that kind of scratch, and 2.) I'm not spending (and taking on that amount of debt) to increase my MPG even by 100%. It's not economically feasible or sound, and lets face facts, it's gonna be outrageously priced if it ever comes to market.
That's not counting the fact that drivers here in the US are more concerned with being faster than the guy in the next lane, or towing the boat they stupidly bought and use twice a year. Fuel consumption would go down if people would quit driving like maniacs.
Last edited by Ray on 06 Oct 2012, 00:02, edited 1 time in total.
richard_leeds wrote:Yes we can pick a high number and say uneconomic, or pick a low one and say economic. Its just plucking numbers from the air. Also fuel & car taxation vary and congestion/pollution policies will also make a difference in many cities.
Anyway, all emergent technologies seem over priced before they become mainstream. Mobile phones in the 1980's are a good example. EV cars will be no different.
Mobile phones aren't cars, they have to meet very basic and unchanging rules to be safe. They drop in price so quickly because the components are very small, very easy to produce, and suffer very little reliability problems. Same goes for any other basic electronics, TVs for example. They aren't required to hold several people safely in a big accident and survive, while being forced to become lighter, cheaper, more complex, and efficient.
I was referring to the EV versus ICE comparison. One is new and emergent, the other is mature and commoditised.
I'm not sure if your post is a complaint about buying new cars as opposed to EV versus ICE? Also there are some US specific issues in your post. Most EU cars have relatively low volume 4 cylinders engines, 35 to 40 mpg is the baseline. My dad's Renault estate was running 37 mpg in 1985 (I know its a different definition of mpg, but you get my drift)
The success of this sort of car will be functionality for a family, how does it compare to a Golf or Focus? If it attracts less tax, uses less fuel ( US$9/gallon) and you can zoom past city congestion controls then people will be prepared to pay a bit more.
Ray hit the nail square on the head, with regards to the US market anyway. It is very true that many people see the mileage and forget about the other costs, like buying a new car vs maintaining the one you have. I remember listening to a story on NPR (American public radio) years ago about how it isn't an economical or environmental gain to through away a car that's less than 8 years or so old for a new prius. And that includes big SUV's.
P.S. please don't misinterpret this as me supporting big SUV's because they make me retch...
I have been driving a 5 door BMW 118d hatchback for five years. It had a very impressive milage combined with massive torque and good power at the time and I will not be buying anything new for several years. But if I eventually buy a new car it will again have to have leading power and milage in its class, offer good transportation and fun to drive. I think the technology of a turbodiesel range extender with good aerodynamics and light weight is the way to go. This VW is probably a bit low on power for me but the general direction is spot on. There will be many more cars with a similar concept and different levels of performance in some years.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
So what?
Torque drives the car "feeling" and electric drives excell with instant torque from standstill.So that flat torque plateau is easily achievable with the new technology .Everyone who has driven proper electric drives is surprised by the takeoff .
If it´s useful to have a turbo diesel Range extender? whatever a range extender is in stationary drive -running at a single speed (at maximum efficiency hopefully) all the time -is this the useful modus operandi for a turbo? My gut feeling is a turbo would be more useful to provide the extra power when needed -so that´s not the idea behind a range extender?
I´m not the turbo specialist but how many hours boost/high temperature producing hours are in current turbounits? -in normal driving the turbo does not constantly work at maximum attack,right? considering the high exhaust temps resulting from power runs I have a few doubts.
