Four Off

[Andres125sx]

Ok thanks

[xDama]

That's what happens when you have no real track limits, and curbs that are friendly to ride.

Track limits are never going to be truly enforced because it has become too subjective.

/thread.

Grass, gravel, sand, whatever surface that isn't smooth will solve the discussion of track-limits entirely. 2 wheels over the white line should result in a reduction of grip, stability and even safety.

I hate the current state of tracks. If Bruxelles was still a gravel box like a couple of years a go, not 1 car would have gone wide. How many cars have gone wide this weekend? Probably every car. It's a good thing that cars get a chance to recover, but IMO it's not the same like 10-20 years ago. It's way to forgiving for a class and sport like F1.

[strad]

It's way to forgiving for a class and sport like F1.

Totally concur mate =D>

[Edax]

I agree totally with the above. First there is the sporting argument. But secondly the drivers seem to be so comfortable off track that they dont even lift. For instance Rosberg in Canada, or Raikkonen in Silverstone. In these cases the asphalt does not create a safety zone, it only enables the cars to race closer to the barrier. That's not really helping safety, and opening the door for freak accidents. What if rosberg would have lost it here.



I also dont think that enfocing it by regulation can work. I've seen too many attempts in different racing series. Monitoring for excursions is difficult and the resulting punishments always seem to be constroversial. At one point (v8's surfers paradise if I remember correcly) they even tried to use electronic surveillance to cut the human factor out. That failed miserably.

On the other hand cutting down on safety is not an option.

Perhaps they should look at the red zones in Paul Ricard. If they can develop a beefed up version of that abrasive paint there; one which does not lead to loss off grip, but takes a couple of laps out of the tirelife. Then you have a reasonably strong incentive not to cross the line.

[strad]

The drivers and the ones who defend the practice I think are ones whose mommies told them they could color outside the lines if they wanted to.
There seems to be no respect for rules anymore.

[Tim.Wright]

Has anyone got a proper source about these supposed "tyre destroying" zones at Paul Ricard because I find it hard to believe that something like that will damage a tyre unless you travel over it with a locked wheel.

Though, I must say, if there is loads of run off then putting a tyre slicer at the exit of every corner would fix track limits problem.

[kptaylor]

Has anyone got a proper source about these supposed "tyre destroying" zones at Paul Ricard because I find it hard to believe that something like that will damage a tyre unless you travel over it with a locked wheel.

Though, I must say, if there is loads of run off then putting a tyre slicer at the exit of every corner would fix track limits problem.

http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/views/ ... sse_en.pdf

Page 12 of the presser has some additional detail.

[Tim.Wright]

Has anyone got a proper source about these supposed "tyre destroying" zones at Paul Ricard because I find it hard to believe that something like that will damage a tyre unless you travel over it with a locked wheel.

Though, I must say, if there is loads of run off then putting a tyre slicer at the exit of every corner would fix track limits problem.

http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/views/ ... sse_en.pdf

Page 12 of the presser has some additional detail.

Nothing in there about these zones damaging the tyres. That seems to be an internet myth which has propogated itself from forum to forum.

High grip surfaces only really work if the car has got its wheels still attached:

[Edax]

Nothing in there about these zones damaging the tyres. That seems to be an internet myth which has propogated itself from forum to forum.

High grip surfaces only really work if the car has got its wheels still attached:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdWheuCT0FY

The fact that the paint damages tires is even on the FIA site. It is just not stated whether it is when locked-up only, or under moderate load.
http://www.fiainstitute.com/media-centr ... re-02.aspx

I've been looking for information on the paint or its supplier. The only bit of information is from the FIA that they put tungsten in. That I cannot imagine since it corrodes like crazy, I assume they use Tungsten carbide.


Tungsten carbide would cut into the tyre rubber easily by just driving over it, it can be like glass shards, only more durable. Locking up over it of course would be disastrous no matter the size. It would depend on the grits size whether it would give any damage when driving over it. I'm not sure whether it has been done, but it would be interesting to see if it can be tuned to create a prescribed damage zone without actually deflating the tyre.

[GitanesBlondes]

That's what happens when you have no real track limits, and curbs that are friendly to ride.

Track limits are never going to be truly enforced because it has become too subjective.

/thread.

Grass, gravel, sand, whatever surface that isn't smooth will solve the discussion of track-limits entirely. 2 wheels over the white line should result in a reduction of grip, stability and even safety.

I hate the current state of tracks. If Bruxelles was still a gravel box like a couple of years a go, not 1 car would have gone wide. How many cars have gone wide this weekend? Probably every car. It's a good thing that cars get a chance to recover, but IMO it's not the same like 10-20 years ago. It's way to forgiving for a class and sport like F1.

Les Combes and Pouhon should have been kept as gravel pits. Same with Blanchimont. You will lift if you think your entry angle is even off in the slightest.

The safety excuse is a load of crap and always has been. It's never been anything more than a trump card to be used to make anyone opposed to having more forgiveness seem archaic.

When Magnussen ran Alonso off the track at 180 on the Kemmel Straight I wasn't even surprised because when you compete in an environment that has virtually no risk involved, you start engaging in moronic behavior on the track. I try and catch MotoGP as often as I can, but I can't recall seeing the sort of chop blocking, and unsafe maneuvers that are currently on display in F1 these days. Biggest difference is MotoGP still has risk, and doing idiot stuff like that will kill someone. F1 is all about minimal risk. Ricciardo who won the race ran wide at Blanchimont onto the tarmac runoff. 20 years ago, he is in the barriers with a DNF. Now you can wide at a 190MPH sweeper and win a race at Spa.

[Tim.Wright]

The fact that the paint damages tires is even on the FIA site. It is just not stated whether it is when locked-up only, or under moderate load.
http://www.fiainstitute.com/media-centr ... re-02.aspx

That link doesn't say anything about damaging tyres. In fact it says that one advantage of this type of runoff is that the service vehicles can easily drive over it. Its abrasive, but that is a long way from damaging a tyre. An ultra abrasive surface will wear a tyre out quickly if you keep running over it, but its not going destroy a tyre unles you lock up over it.

In fact even that's debbatable - see 1:09


I think we can consider this tyre "destroying nature" of the Paul Ricard run-off nothing but an internet myth...

[Andres125sx]

When Magnussen ran Alonso off the track at 180 on the Kemmel Straight I wasn't even surprised because when you compete in an environment that has virtually no risk involved, you start engaging in moronic behavior on the track. I try and catch MotoGP as often as I can, but I can't recall seeing the sort of chop blocking, and unsafe maneuvers that are currently on display in F1 these days. Biggest difference is MotoGP still has risk, and doing idiot stuff like that will kill someone.

+1

[NTS]

There is another problem with surfaces that shred tires: They might also shred a motorcycle race suit if the rider falls off and goes over it without the bike.

So some kind of paint, line or measurement device and a rule that if hit, cross or trigger it you get an immediate drive through seems the safest option. Maybe less definitive than a gravel trap, but enough of a negative consequence to not run out of bounds if it is avoidable.

[Tim.Wright]

There is another problem with surfaces that shred tires: They might also shred a motorcycle race suit if the rider falls off and goes over it without the bike.

So some kind of paint, line or measurement device and a rule that if hit, cross or trigger it you get an immediate drive through seems the safest option. Maybe less definitive than a gravel trap, but enough of a negative consequence to not run out of bounds if it is avoidable.

I tried a quick search for motorbike racing on Paul Ricard and didn't find anything. I'd say the run off is the reason why.

[Moxie]

The fact that the paint damages tires is even on the FIA site. It is just not stated whether it is when locked-up only, or under moderate load.
http://www.fiainstitute.com/media-centr ... re-02.aspx

That link doesn't say anything about damaging tyres. In fact it says that one advantage of this type of runoff is that the service vehicles can easily drive over it. Its abrasive, but that is a long way from damaging a tyre. An ultra abrasive surface will wear a tyre out quickly if you keep running over it, but its not going destroy a tyre unles you lock up over it.

In fact even that's debbatable - see 1:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toosc2WUrFA

I think we can consider this tyre "destroying nature" of the Paul Ricard run-off nothing but an internet myth...

Even if it is internet myth, it is not a bad idea. Imagine runoff areas that contain zones of broom swept concrete, and zones that contain the shells of small muscles. The levels of abrasive ness can be somewhat controlled (within the skill of the craft) as the surface is installed. The ability of tires to withstand the surfaces would then depend largely upon the tire composition. The bubble gum tires wouldn't stand a chance.

The Drawback...this would create a very dangerous situation for motorcycle riders.

Of course a lot of theoretical physics and testing would be required before such a system is implemented.