100 kg of fuel, who would win?

[SiLo]

I was going to say, it would be no contest as the V8 uses so much more fuel than the current V6's.

[hollus]

If it were to be the same v8 engine from 2013, then it would have to run at approximately 2/3rd's the power of the 2013 spec to make it to the finishing line (Assuming a 150kg average fuel starting weight in 2013). That would put the engine at an average of roughly 530 hp.

Actually, according to my (very rough) numbers here http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 49#p570649, the V8 car would win close to 3 seconds/lap by being 90kg lighter and lose about 3 seconds per lap due to being 200hp behind due to the cited fuel limitations (the model assumes a more or less flat and constant power, though).
But actually, even if the model says they are about equal, the crippled but light V8 would win as it has the ability to use its full power at the beginning of each acceleration zone while lift and coasting at the end of the straights. In a way it would have a super KERS available for 30 seconds a lap.

[giantfan10]

and the v6 with more torque would be able to more or less keep up with the lighter v8 and keep accelerating while the V8 is coasting : ) i think

[hollus]

Maybe, but in the corners... I refuse to think in terms of torque, though

[AnthonyG]

The V8 might also be kinder to the tyres than the V6.

[Moose]

If it were to be the same v8 engine from 2013, then it would have to run at approximately 2/3rd's the power of the 2013 spec to make it to the finishing line (Assuming a 150kg average fuel starting weight in 2013). That would put the engine at an average of roughly 530 hp.

Actually, according to my (very rough) numbers here http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 49#p570649, the V8 car would win close to 3 seconds/lap by being 90kg lighter and lose about 3 seconds per lap due to being 200hp behind due to the cited fuel limitations (the model assumes a more or less flat and constant power, though).
But actually, even if the model says they are about equal, the crippled but light V8 would win as it has the ability to use its full power at the beginning of each acceleration zone while lift and coasting at the end of the straights. In a way it would have a super KERS available for 30 seconds a lap.

I don't get your reasoning - the V6 engines can accelerate a car much faster than the old V8s even at maximum power output. All that electrical torque really shines at the beginning of a straight.

The current V6's 0-100 times are around 2.1 seconds. The old V8s were around 2.9.

[hollus]

The idea is that the V8 wouldn't be stuck with 520hp, it would have the full 720 or whatever where it matters most in exchange for having 320 or whatever when it doesn't. Since my model assumed 520 everywhere, the lap time would in reality be much better than that.

[Moose]

The idea is that the V8 wouldn't be stuck with 520hp, it would have the full 720 or whatever where it matters most in exchange for having 320 or whatever when it doesn't. Since my model assumed 520 everywhere, the lap time would in reality be much better than that.

I would expect any reasonable model to build in that expectation anyway. Otherwise it's probably too rough of a model to actually use for anything much.

[hollus]

It is too rough indeed.

[senja]

What about aerodynamics?
2013 car has better times, but with coanda exhaust, beam wing, higher nose, and more fuel.

I think with 100 kg of fuel V6 clearly wins.

[Moose]

What about aerodynamics?
2013 car has better times, but with coanda exhaust, beam wing, higher nose, and more fuel.

I think with 100 kg of fuel V6 clearly wins.

We're not talking about 2013 car vs 2015 car. We're talking about who would win a race with the current rules, except with the possibility of switching out your PU for a NA V8, but keeping the 100kg fuel flow limit.

For me, it's kinda clear - the V6 will win. The V6s are able to complete races within a minute or so of what the V8s were capable of, even when the V8s had higher fuel flow *and* better aero. Take away the better aero alone and I suspect the V6s would be faster over a race distance (heck, this is already true at certain circuits which don't have significant aero components). Take away the extra fuel, and I expect the V8 would be much much much slower.

[Cold Fussion]

If it were to be the same v8 engine from 2013, then it would have to run at approximately 2/3rd's the power of the 2013 spec to make it to the finishing line (Assuming a 150kg average fuel starting weight in 2013). That would put the engine at an average of roughly 530 hp.

But actually, even if the model says they are about equal, the crippled but light V8 would win as it has the ability to use its full power at the beginning of each acceleration zone while lift and coasting at the end of the straights. In a way it would have a super KERS available for 30 seconds a lap.

If the 2013 engine were to have the 7 speed box from 2013, while the V6T had the same 8 speed box (with the same flatish power curve) then I would presume you would have to run compromised gearing (in terms of overall laptime from acceleration) in order to have a high enough top speed to be able to defend from the V6T cars. The V8's may have a higher peak power at 18000 rpm, but what's the power curve look like at 14000-16000? Remember to gear for defence they'd need to be able to reach 330-340 km/h on the straights, which in the v8 days would be a Monza gearset, with most tracks having top speeds between 300-315. It may be that under these circumstances the V6T has a higher average power output on the straights and could potentially close the gaps during the crucial acceleration zones at the beginning of the straights to allow for slipstreaming by the end. An interesting problem.

The current V6's 0-100 times are around 2.1 seconds. The old V8s were around 2.9.

I don't see how this could be the case, both the 2013 and 2015 cars are traction limited to atleast 100 km/h, with the 2015 cars having less grip in the first place I don't see how such a significant improvement could be true.

but keeping the 100kg fuel flow limit.

No it's about the 100kg race fuel limit, not the 100 kg/h fuel flow rate. It's a crucial difference in this case because it means the V8 engines would have a maximum power output of around 550-600 hp (under a 100 kg/h fuel flow limit), compared to an average power output of 550-600 hp. Under the former scenario, they would not be able to employ the strategy that Hollus has proposed from his model, they would have to rely purely on the cornering advantage of less weight.

[PlatinumZealot]

Errr.....the V6 would win because the V8 would run dry around 2/3rds in, or drive at half power to preserve fuel.

Hmm... V8's were a few seconds a lap faster... If the fuel flow is dialled back (especially fuel used to blow the diffusers ~5% to 10% more usage) With no TERS but front wheel KERS the V8 might** just be happy with 100kg of fuel for the race.

[J.A.W.]

The current rules include tight constraints on gearing too, this would tend to cruel the V8 somewhat..

[mrluke]

Wait the v8 gets 4wd and a 90kg weight advantage? What more do you need to do to skew it in the V8s favour?

All being equal the turbo car will be quicker, thats why they were banned.

Even if the V6s were a bit slower in the corners they are nearly 30kmh a faster on the straight, how would the v8 ever overtake?