Evolution and limit of battery energy density

[Andres125sx]

Compound interest is an economical concept, and irrelevant here, battery development curve is exponential not because of compund interest, but because Niquel batteries were used for 90 years so the curve was flat in that long period, and in the last two decades Lithium batteries have been a revolution wich has multiplied energy density of batteries

Talking about the discussion, that´s the reason EVs are being developed in last years, and the reason for FE

Also that´s the reason for a promising future for EVs with LiS and LiO batteries, even when many people still resist to accept future is electric

[flynfrog]

I'm sorry you don't understand basic math I feel its not possible to continue this discussion.

maybe try reading this to understand that the 5-8% is correct regardless of the technology of the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest

It's not the numbers that are problematic, but rather that you talk BS.

so to clarify you don't believe:

There is a hard physical limit for battery capacity

the data set for battery energy density by year and think I made it up

there is a max limit for how much energy a solar cell can harvest.

there is a max semiconductor junction size

If you are going to call BS try backing it up.

[autogyro]

so to clarify you don't believe:

There is a hard physical limit for battery capacity

the data set for battery energy density by year and think I made it up

there is a max limit for how much energy a solar cell can harvest.

there is a max semiconductor junction size

If you are going to call BS try backing it up.

Getting fed up with this irrelevant argument.
The only things preventing the take up of electric cars in large numbers, is cost and energy infra structure.
There were efficient cars and buses running on battery power in Towns and Cities in 1899.

[J.A.W.]

& trams/trolley buses - on grid from town supply..

[Andres125sx]

Getting fed up with this irrelevant argument.
The only things preventing the take up of electric cars in large numbers, is cost and energy infra structure.
There were efficient cars and buses running on battery power in Towns and Cities in 1899.

And both will be solved with LiS batteries. Cost as they will be some magnitudes cheaper than current LiIon batteries, and energy infra structure since they will multiply current range so recharging out of home will not be that necesary

[mzso]

I'm sorry you don't understand basic math I feel its not possible to continue this discussion.

maybe try reading this to understand that the 5-8% is correct regardless of the technology of the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest

It's not the numbers that are problematic, but rather that you talk BS.

so to clarify you don't believe:

There is a hard physical limit for battery capacity

the data set for battery energy density by year and think I made it up

there is a max limit for how much energy a solar cell can harvest.

there is a max semiconductor junction size

If you are going to call BS try backing it up.

How about not putting words into my mouth...
Batteries have a hard limit. We just don't know what it is. For now it's 5210 Wh/kg (18.75 MJ/kg) which would be even better than the 46MJ/kg for petrol knowing that the typical efficency is 20-25% for ICEs and could be 80-90%+ for EVs.

That yearly percentage is nonsense. Batteries are not CPU. You can't just constantly improve them.

No hard limit was identified so far for solar cells. Actually at Caltech they produced experimental nanowire solar cells that capture 85% of the whole solar spectrum.

The junction size is irrelevant. They use multi-junction to grab more of the solar spectrum. The record is near 50% now for multi junction solar cells.

The very first, you should try and back up your claims. (Most of it you can't because it's nonsense).

[mzso]

Getting fed up with this irrelevant argument.
The only things preventing the take up of electric cars in large numbers, is cost and energy infra structure.
There were efficient cars and buses running on battery power in Towns and Cities in 1899.

And both will be solved with LiS batteries. Cost as they will be some magnitudes cheaper than current LiIon batteries, and energy infra structure since they will multiply current range so recharging out of home will not be that necesary

Don't be overzealous. You can't know that, because it's uncertain, particularly if you talk about cost. The projections for which always include more wishful thinking than science.

[Andres125sx]

Don't be overzealous.

Sorry but I can´t stop myself I´ve always been very optimistic and I love electric. I fly RC planes for more than 20 years and I´ve seen the transition from all ICE to electric and love all the advantages electric setups bring over combustion engines

I know for production cars it will be a lot more dificult because of power demands, but I really think it´s a matter of time. Increasing number of EVs I see on roads daily, LiS and LiO batteries development, and FE including increasing interest of manufacturers to join FE only add fuel to my wishes

[flynfrog]

Max theoretical energy storage.

http://www.pa.msu.edu/cmp/csc/eprint/DT225.pdf (this is your carbon Nanotube battery)
I was looking for a better reference buts its surprising difficult to fine references for physics principals.

Solar cell limit for P-N Junction Cells
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockley%E ... sser_limit
This also explains adding layers adds efficiency I never said it didn't.


5-8%

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleL ... c0ee00777c don't have a non pay version but you can see the trend from the graphs below and it is not depended on chemistry.





Semi conductor

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/16 ... moores-law

[sgth0mas]

the big difference between electric and combustion cars is the fact that an electric can reharvest energy. Of course a hybrid can as well...but now youve got to deal with both.

Based on some of the comments here...someone needs to tell elon musk that hes failed. As well as the rest of the world purchasing his products.

Electricity has the benefit of being more of a medium of exchange instead of a single commodity based energy source. An electric car can be charged from coal, NG, nuclear or green energy based plants. Whereas an ice car has to be the designated fuel type. So electric cars help spread the risk of a supply shortage and can diversify energy options.

Im surprised that anyone can favor solar so heavily but not electric cars when theyre both EVs.

I dont care to see electrics race, but im not going to act like EVs are destined to fail. Ive never owned an EV and will hold out as long as i can, but both have their time and place.

[sgth0mas]

Its also worth noting that battery technology almost never lives up to hype.

Also EVs dont have to be solely battery powered... hybrids and hydrogen fuel cells for example.

[flynfrog]

the big difference between electric and combustion cars is the fact that an electric can reharvest energy. Of course a hybrid can as well...but now youve got to deal with both.

Based on some of the comments here...someone needs to tell elon musk that hes failed. As well as the rest of the world purchasing his products.

Electricity has the benefit of being more of a medium of exchange instead of a single commodity based energy source. An electric car can be charged from coal, NG, nuclear or green energy based plants. Whereas an ice car has to be the designated fuel type. So electric cars help spread the risk of a supply shortage and can diversify energy options.

Im surprised that anyone can favor solar so heavily but not electric cars when theyre both EVs.

I dont care to see electrics race, but im not going to act like EVs are destined to fail. Ive never owned an EV and will hold out as long as i can, but both have their time and place.

My original post pointed out the battery is currently improving at a pretty constant rate with a comparison to fuel. A few members apparently look offense to this.

Ice cars don't have to run on gasoline a good chuck sold in the US now can run on Ethanol and gasoline or CNG or gasoline. Not to mention diesel propane hydrogen ect. Keep in mind entire market share of EVs is well under 1% not exactly taking the world by storm at the moment.

I think my comment comparing Formula E to Solar car racing is being misinterpreted as applying to all EVs. I was trying to point out that simply waiting for a better battery or shoving more batteries into something or a mid race car swap isn't really a solution, if you don't tackle total system efficiency you are not really solving anything. Formula E with the car swap is the perfect example of this. The format is wrong for electric racing.

[sgth0mas]

the big difference between electric and combustion cars is the fact that an electric can reharvest energy. Of course a hybrid can as well...but now youve got to deal with both.

Based on some of the comments here...someone needs to tell elon musk that hes failed. As well as the rest of the world purchasing his products.

Electricity has the benefit of being more of a medium of exchange instead of a single commodity based energy source. An electric car can be charged from coal, NG, nuclear or green energy based plants. Whereas an ice car has to be the designated fuel type. So electric cars help spread the risk of a supply shortage and can diversify energy options.

Im surprised that anyone can favor solar so heavily but not electric cars when theyre both EVs.

I dont care to see electrics race, but im not going to act like EVs are destined to fail. Ive never owned an EV and will hold out as long as i can, but both have their time and place.

My original post pointed out the battery is currently improving at a pretty constant rate with a comparison to fuel. A few members apparently look offense to this.

Ice cars don't have to run on gasoline a good chuck sold in the US now can run on Ethanol and gasoline or CNG or gasoline. Not to mention diesel propane hydrogen ect. Keep in mind entire market share of EVs is well under 1% not exactly taking the world by storm at the moment.

I think my comment comparing Formula E to Solar car racing is being misinterpreted as applying to all EVs. I was trying to point out that simply waiting for a better battery or shoving more batteries into something or a mid race car swap isn't really a solution, if you don't tackle total system efficiency you are not really solving anything. Formula E with the car swap is the perfect example of this. The format is wrong for electric racing.

Makes sense with regard to your views on racing. I think most people are misreading things...probably myself included.

I think solar and batteries are pretty much married on the bulk of consumer applications...and it has to be for transient power conditions and less than optimum solar days.

And i live in the south so it may be different, but its only a 10% ethanol blend with some stations offering 85%. I believe the 10% is federal but the 85% offering is based on who wants to sell it. Youre correct that most new cars are "dualfuel", but at least in texas...you cant find e85 anywhere. we used to get ethanol free gas at boat docks and oklahoma for kart and bike racing actually.

I think the goal was really to reduce dependence on foreign oil with the guise of going green. Last i heard, some of the government programs for ethanol will be phased out as they should.

[sgth0mas]

And CNG cars are really not as big as people think yet. Its mostly fleet sales that pick up CNG now. I believe a lot of service companies did some switching when the price per barrel was 100+.

[flynfrog]

I agree ethanol is a very stupid Idea. I grew up in the Midwest where E85 is pretty common. Now that I moved out west its harder to find we do have quite a few CNG stations though. My point being even though an ICE engine can only run on combustible matls. Its not uncommon for them to work on multiple fuels although I have yet to see a CNG station not coupled to a Gasoline station.


Ps you can edit your posts to avoid posting twice in a row (I'm guilty of doing the same)