FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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checkered
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Wonderful examples

in all. I hope the right people get to read what you've come up with. You've also helped me to clarify my position to budget caps. For me, it really boils down to two arguments, even if there are more (and propably more significant ones):

1) Ineffective budget capping will play almost uniquely into the hands of the manufacturers. The field will be polarised and thinned of innovative people with valid ideas who don't necessarily fit the bill (... or rather, lack the ability to pass the bill).

2) Effective budget capping will sever much of the technical ties with the rest of the World. The series will in short order lose its relevance, unable to maintain the many symbiosis it has so profoundly enjoyed and profited from.

Money is ill suited to govern imagination, resourcefulness and ideas - a blunt and indiscriminate weapon, rarely associated with fairness. Budget capping extends the technological arbitrariness in the current regulations into yet another realm. Of course, almost anything can be transcended.

But if you ask me, I wouldn't like to see budget caps emerge for I cannot believe there weren't more fruitful approaches available. I've recently leafed through some relevant economic theory - given enough energy, perhaps I'll feature it later on.

Ogami musashi
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Rob W wrote:
Ogami musashi wrote:Now the budget cap will not include engine developement...
I found this particularly funny.. Isn't there a ban on engine development? How can they then turn around and say, "the budget cap doesn't include the engine - which you can't develop anyway.." :lol:

R
THe engine cap includes the KERS and the developpement of 2013 engines...

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Rob W
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954, ... 71,00.html

After reading David Richard's comments on the budget cap today it dawned on me there is another glaring area which will potentially allow teams to subvert the system and/or create a lot of of unnecessary hassle (and cost) for teams.

Imagine this: A team sees, mid-season, that another team has a certain advantage. Rumours go about the grid (as always) about it and how this new idea/device works. The team can chose to spend X millions of dollars investigating the idea, developing parts and then testing them.

OR, it can offer an engineer from the other team a job for a lot more money - but a lot less than going through the whole design process themselves. Half the work or more is already done. (not suggesting he would take designs, but ideas and knowledge in the engineer's head can't be removed safely yet :P)

= they get the item for a fraction of the cost and risk.

The salary cap will therefore have a knock-on effect which is the opposite of Max's aim - that of raising the cost of engineers/designers since teams will have to offer longer term contracts and negotiate them earlier in each season to prevent people moving about year to year.

Richard's has a point though - Max is dreaming if he thinks these businesses can halve their budgets.

R

ConsFW
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Rob W wrote:Max is dreaming if he thinks these businesses can halve their budgets.
R
Max doesn't dream; he hallucinates.

effuno
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Ogami musashi wrote:I think there's a little misconception here about the purpose of the caps.

The caps are not done to level the field, they're done to allow small teams to enter F1 without dying 1 season later.



Yes, but if that team spend as much, she will raise the level of competitiveness via this increased funding, then the other teams will have to follow the trend.

This effect has absolutely no garantee to be sustainable and even seeing how many teams pull out of F1 for the last 10 years you can see it is not.


I'm sorry, but as far as I can remember, the talk has always been about LEVEL PLAYING field, be it from Max, or team principals. The 'attacting new teams' talk has been more about attracting them by showing off a level playing field (and therefore, success at a faster rate than it would be now)


And on teams dropping out; let the rich and mighty survive..! F1 is that kinda world..in any case, its about technology and entertainment and not much to do with someone's food and shelter.!!

donskar
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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I hate the idea of a budget cap.

It will encourage cheating in the many forms suggested very intelligently above (and in ways yet mentioned).
It threatens to "dumb down" F1, thus threatening F1's stature.

It also risk another devaluing suggested by Nick Fry in Autosport.com (though he supports the cap): "the amount of money we are prepared to spend was dependent on the value of winning" I think that is a very perceptive and valuable insight, and it begs the question: how do you cap the value of winning? What will sponsors say about being asked to pay millions to appear on cars built to a cap?

F1 can now lay claim to being the greatest racing cars in the world. In future they'll be the fastest available at a set price?
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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checkered
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Well, I guess many

of you have already noticed the "Budget cap Q & A with Max Mosley". I really should -insert rant here- but am currently a little pressed for time, so a little less will have to do. Let's just say that my overall impression had a lot to do with how Mosley seemed to relish how complicated the budget caps will be to plan and implement. (Ciro reminded us about the "Tao of Racing" in the nick of time, if you ask me ...) Perhaps the FIA plans to televise the teams' audits to corner the lucrative accountancy/corporate law fanbase?

I was also disheartened by the fact that to me he seems most determined to make F1 almost solely a sponsor and fan financed organisation, even if it means rules that preclude any and all possibility to earn something from innovation and engineering as well (or recognise/capitalise on those earnings within the sport). This appears very unimaginative as far as tangible possibilities of adding value and value continuity to the franchise go. Doubtless economic analyses of the expansion of the F1 towards emerging markets, and their particular characteristics, might seem to support this emphasis - I can understand it very well - yet I believe that an almost uniquely marketing/brand/image based approach is very shortsighted and potentially unnecessarily damaging. Additionally, it could be discerned as assigning the new markets a specific role, one that might soon cause some disillusionment. It also goes against the "raison d'être" of many people who make the series tick each and every day.

Cutting a billion euros' worth of "costs" from the series (not investments, then?) does nothing if the released capital isn't put to work somewhere. Mosley, following the logic straightforwardly, does appear to think that at least this much investment is misplaced within F1. In case it's indeed misplaced I'd suggest that the FIA first do a detailed and impartial study as to what extent their own technical regulations have pushed that investment into marginal areas and whether some of that potential could be released at will and with better effect within the sport. Making assumptions of human potential, no matter how educated, should result mainly in practices that are enabling.

Our perceptions might be subjective, but our being isn't. Perhaps it'd be high time to take a step back and look around, listen and observe. People with less visible functions than team directors, and indeed fans too, are not lacking in potential because of their positions in the F1 equation. Leadership is an exercise in-possible, not im-possible. I'm not nearly as troubled with organised fiscal prudence as I am with the underlying logic of the current budget capping drive. I like to be "shown the money", but not as much as showing some heart.

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Benniau
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checkered wrote: I'd suggest that the FIA first do a detailed and impartial study as to what extent their own technical regulations have pushed that investment into marginal areas and whether some of that potential could be released at will and with better effect within the sport.
That is a very good point.

If you looked at a teams R&D + Testing costs as a whole... Id imagine a very large percentage of the costs are due to the teams having to redesign and re-innovate due to new restrictions and regulations being imposed by the FIA.

Ok, so lets just say that the FIA are doing this for the sole purpose to evening the playing feild to allow bottom teams to stay in longer.
The Concorde Agreement is still up in the air at the moment, why don't they give more money to the bottom teams. The Concorde agreement shares the money from television sales, etc to the teams based on their performance the previous year.
Reverse the order! Give the bottom teams the biggest shares!
I mean, it's not like teams are going to purposfully loose so they can make more money... nobody is in F1 for the money, its a drain, it's about your team winning, it's about the exposure you and your sponsors get for winning, which leads to bigger things than $100m prize money.

The big teams like Ferrari, Mclaren, BMW, Renault, will never have problems finding money to throw into it, they don't really need the money from the TV rights.. but they feel its "owed" to them because they bring the attention to the sport. That is very true, completely warranted. Not sure how to get around that one, unless someone just explains to them that F1 is a platform that allows them to bring so much exposure to their brand, and they should be thankful for that. Winning means they get bigger sponsors which will always far outway any measly tv rights money the teams get.

Belatti
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Benniau wrote:...Reverse the order! Give the bottom teams the biggest shares!...
Thats impossible to do, mainly because your other points are right, Benniau.

What I think that could be done is this: Just divide equally the money!
Doesn´t matter your championship position, you will get the same.

Regarding this thread, I think FIA and Max are falling deeper and deeper seriously into stupidity... and there seems to be no way out!
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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Rob W
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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OK, it's been announced after a couple of quiet months on the subject... sort of.

F1 seems to often announce stuff like this as a sort of starting point for all the teams to have their say.. I swear it's the way the FIA researches and tests ideas - getting benefit of teams/industry fanatics/F1 experts/arm-chair commentators etc (and the wisdom of the F1 Technical collective 'brain' =D> ).

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954, ... 23,00.html

Flavio Briatore has already led the charge, showing he wont miss any opportunity to make a hilarious comment.

"I already pay 40 per cent less than the cap. If I want to keep to the limit then I need to spend more. It's nonsense." :lol:

R

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Phrases that come to my mind:

- The monetary value of winning is little. It has value mainly for the engineers and team bosses, to avoid being fired. You get some money from FIA, but this won't pay the investment.

- The value of leading is roughly equal to 30 minutes of TV time with an audience that is not surpassed by any other sport.

- I estimate the order of magnitude of the european/american audience in the hundred million. Then you have Asia.

- The Superbowl has the same order of magnitude audience, but mainly in US.

- A 30 second ad at Superbowl costs around 2.5 US devaluated millions.

- The 15 minutes I estimate the cameras show the leader, at Superbowl rates, mean 75 million devaluated dollars, or, better yet, that's my estimate.

- If you invest, I don't know, 300 millions for year, you pay your "rent" by leading 4 races.

- At F1 the ads are part of the circus while at Superbowl, the ads had to contend with the people going to the bathroom.

- The teams already have their own budget caps in place.

- The racing teams are actually separated bussiness branches. The cap will help the owners to deal with maximum budget for their racing branches.

- The cap could backfire: it could force lesser teams to go out if they don't increase their budget to "fill the cap".

- The budget cap, if implemented, will avoid the "bubble effect" if the TV audiences burst.

- KERS are not included in the cap. KERS could "spread" the effect of leading the race: people could realize that "spending" all the KERS energy on a few laps will give them the ad time they need to survive.

- People in Europe will be saturated by F1 in a few years, I think. Ecclestone is thinking ahead.

- Yes, the figures for audience are growing, but this means they will diminish some time in the future.

- You can approach "the market" in two ways: by winning (or leading, whatever) or by doing something interesting, like Alonso has done in the last races. ING is probably grateful.

- Ecclestone is looking for more money, not less money. Why? Because the cap will establish the cost of racing for ALL teams.

- FIA can "dumb down" ANY series, after all they regulate all of the relevant ones, so they can "restore the order" at any time. The only threat could come from A1GP, but the bussiness links make this a slim possibility.

- Anyway, I caught myself watching A1GP last weekend for the first time in my life.
Ciro

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Rob W
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Ciro Pabón wrote:- The racing teams are actually separated bussiness branches...
All the more reason, as I said in a much earlier post, why it simply wont work. Ferrari considers its entire F1 expenditure to be a marketing cost. Another team, like Williams basically exists in itself as an F1 racing company... There will be some shady and dubious accounting measures going on - as I also said before - which cannot be checked or fairly compared team to team.

Supplier/sponsorship arrangements for items like brake technology, carbon sheets, wiring etc can make the whole system pointless, and that is without even considering the differences in pay rates/living costs in each country.

Imagine still if they started making teams account for the emissions arising from their total operations.

R

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checkered
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Some nice reasoning from

Ciro there ... I'll expand on some of those points, reflecting on a couple of other ongoing discussions here. So I will ramble on a while, hopefully not altogether pointlessly.
Ciro Pabón wrote:- The value of leading is roughly equal to 30 minutes of TV time with an audience that is not surpassed by any other sport.

- I estimate the order of magnitude of the european/american audience in the hundred million. Then you have Asia.

- The Superbowl has the same order of magnitude audience, but mainly in US.

- A 30 second ad at Superbowl costs around 2.5 US devaluated millions.

- The 15 minutes I estimate the cameras show the leader, at Superbowl rates, mean 75 million devaluated dollars, or, better yet, that's my estimate.

- If you invest, I don't know, 300 millions for year, you pay your "rent" by leading 4 races.
Those figures sound plausible, perhaps you should be contracted to manage sponsor relations by a team! The difference with F1, though, is that in Superbowl the ads are primarily directed at a fairly uniform market and due to the nature of the event can be sold and managed in a very concentrated fashion. Superbowl ads in themselves have become an "event", even. The dynamics of advertisement liveries and accompanying brand efficiency over a Global motorsport campaign are somewhat different and the "actionable customer interface treshold" can be higher. Some bang for the buck might be lost for the more diverse, complicated and costly efforts to turn reaction into action.
Ciro Pabón wrote:- The monetary value of winning is little. It has value mainly for the engineers and team bosses, to avoid being fired. You get some money from FIA, but this won't pay the investment.

- You can approach "the market" in two ways: by winning (or leading, whatever) or by doing something interesting, like Alonso has done in the last races. ING is probably grateful.
Surely this has been contributing to the impetus behind the OWG. Continuing with the Superbowl analogy (though I won't grace my hunch with figures, sorry) through the race, something interesting has to happen every three minutes or so. In terms of media exposure, overtaking is the great equaliser, an valid reason for the TV director to take the cameras off the leading driver. I wonder whether the OWG was shooting for roughly 35 overtakings per race, all through the field? Plenty to make the event seem action packed and relentless. I'd much rather see more teams and a less gimmicky approach than flaps and push-to-pass, but the existing teams are currently too scared to take on a greater challenge. We'll see whether this will come back to haunt them yet.

Of course, overtaking is hardly the only "interesting" thing beyond leading a race and Alonso's current team Renault, for example, has done its bit to keep up with the times with its exemplary web presence (a perfect match for their thrifty approach). As the negotiations to get a replacement for the Concorde agreement are infamously still ongoing, the teams should push to be allowed to make greater use of the new media platforms to shore up their economies. Any live media content produced aboard a team's vehicle, in a team's pit box and on the pit wall, plus any live team telemetry should be free for the team to broadcast over the internet. This wouldn't compromise overall coverage, but add to it while better addressing the "customer interface" dilemma with instantly actionable advertising benefiting the teams directly. Oh, and if anything akin to this is considered for implementation, I fully expect to hear from the parties involved ... or they will hear from me.

Funnily enough, the efforts to change the dynamics of F1 races - and new media opportunities - can be seen to defuse any realistic need for budget caps. Indirect income will be more evenly distributed anyway and the teams, if willing, should have an ever increasing amount of varied associations to make. Perhaps they shouldn't be rushed. By the way, the budget caps (and all the different "five year plans"), distinctly remind me of all the trimmings of a communist economy. I don't know if the effects on F1 of expanding to countries that scarcely operate according to what is recognised as traditional free market economy is sufficiently explored and understood. If you think the sport has become less open and less welcoming of innovation, there's plenty more in store if we choose to go further.

Individuals with a knack for survival can of course play and thrive in any environment, but generally speaking the overall cost of proving oneself against some challenges can be too great as well. Obviously Bernie is having fun, being the player that he is; if disagreeing with the merits of democracy suits the bottom line, fine. And should the opposite be true, I have little doubt he'll champion representative government. At least given his public image, he seems to convey a very focussed pragmatism in business matters and is perpetually pushing the limits. I can only imgine, though, that the freedom to act and the power to act within those freedoms have an optimisation curve as well.

Mr. Ecclestone has made an art of operating at the limit of his powers and whereas the freedoms of the F1 teams are being chipped away, the balance and its ramifications will reassert themselves. The redeeming quality in Bernie's act is of course the tremendous leverage his extreme position provides, empirically demonstrating the potential of the sport. In so doing he's actually placing enormous faith in the teams, event organisers, sponsors, manufacturers and the FIA in trusting them to provide dynamic counterweight to his actions. I'm worried that a budget gap, as proposed by the FIA, is more like unsprung mass than a tuned mass damper in getting to grips with steering Formula One's momentum.

With Mosley's troubles this is an interesting time for Bernie to contemplate why and how the teams and the FIA are so ill at ease with the freedoms they have. My hypothesis is that at least partly, this follows from Ecclestone's domination of F1 assets as a brand (courtesy of a deal with Max) and that imbalance the teams cannot compensate for; ultimately their attempts to defuse the financial pressures through self-regulation (even if it's at odds with their other, such as technological, interests) will diminish Bernie's powers as well in a deflationary cycle.

Ecclestone has worked like hell to shore up his position with every bit of World economies' growth and emerging markets he could accommodate in F1. Time and space are running out however, not to mention scale related considerations emerging (such as social and ecological sustainability). It is possible that Bernie won't have to make adjustments or compromises for as long as he's gripping the helm, but on the other hand it'd be very intriguing to see him navigate a change of course - as a matter of personal interest, no less. At least he should research the relative benefits of doing so.

Be as it may, I'm increasingly seeing the budget cap proposal as an inevitable, spontaneous symptom of a wider dynamic working in the backround, one that any one person cannot steer for its existence doesn't originate with individual perceptions. Doubtless some of the leaks can be patched with agreeing upon fixed costs for the duration of the current heading, but that doesn't amount to renewing the fleet nor does it directly enable it ... even if significant expenditures remain exempt from the limitations.

For an economist, I guess, theoretically a profit margin of zero is desirable - all disposable income is reinvested into developing, streamlining and expanding productivity. As such, a spending cap isn't very rational - when you envision something, the process of producing, using and benefiting from it determines the added value, not the investment alone. The rational explanation for freezing the V8s and imposing the budget cap while separating and liberating the auxiliary systems from the engine would be that gasoline powered ICEs are generally on their way out in relatively short order. Hmm.

I can't remember anyone suggesting that, apart from a vague memory of some BMW exec letting "eventually we'll go electric" slip (in a subordinate clause). I thought it was Burkhard Göschel, when the FIA and the GPMA announced they had come to reconcile their differences towards the end of 2006 and I looked the interview up, but couldn't find him saying anything like that. Oh, well. Anyway, revisiting some of the earlier stuff about budget capping, the concept seems to have been pretty pliable - so I'd be surprised if it were to be shaped like the current proposal suggests either. I'm not categorically opposed to imposed limits either (and the current proposal has merits to previous ones) but I'd rather see a healthier situation emerge by its own accord.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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Chaparral
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Hi guys - Im a relative newbie here with a little knowledge over a long period of F1 and the entertainment industry so don’t jump on me guys however I have a few thoughts on this capping of costs that are being proposed and have pulled some comments from each of you that highlight different areas of this scenario.
I will say up front however – I do not believe the circus has the facilities to firstly self regulate costs be it in-house or from a third party nor do I think any of the players wish to for their very own reasons. If you will entertain me – the record industry runs very similar – whilst they may have associations in many different territories that establish ‘the rules of engagement’ when it comes to how business is conducted be it in signing artists or securing retail support or ‘working’ the charts etc – its basically if you turn around quick enough you will cop the knife in the chest – its business – no different with the business that is F1 and as BE has always maintained its all about the show – well Im sure it is however its also totally about BE forget the other players in this game its his game total.

Checkered - Our perceptions might be subjective, but our being isn't. Perhaps it'd be high time to take a step back and look around, listen and observe. People with less visible functions than team directors, and indeed fans too, are not lacking in potential because of their positions in the F1 equation. Leadership is an exercise in-possible, not im-possible. I'm not nearly as troubled with organised fiscal prudence as I am with the underlying logic of the current budget capping drive. I like to be "shown the money", but not as much as showing some heart.

Checkered I don’t think the FIA have ever had the fans in mind – I remember that survey of fans back a few years ago – they received 97,000 replies (on what I felt was a very biased agenda of questions) and I don’t believe any of the suggestions from the fan base have ever been taken up.

Donskar - F1 can now lay claim to being the greatest racing cars in the world. In future they'll be the fastest available at a set price?

Donskar – they are simply not the fastest cars/formulae – that belongs to the Indycar formula – Thursdays practice for the Indy 500 and Ryan Briscoe our Aussie guy is running 223 mph as an average lap speed. I do agree yes for obvious technical reasons F1 are certainly quickest

Belatti - Regarding this thread, I think FIA and Max are falling deeper and deeper seriously into stupidity... and there seems to be no way out!

Belatti – I agree – the FIA if you look at some of the stuff coming from them (forgetting Max) they seem in some form of disarray – what was that comment on multiple World Champion Sebastien Loeb about his presentation – not the sort of press you need as everyone thinks (no sorry) knows you’re a tosser

Rob W - "I already pay 40 per cent less than the cap. If I want to keep to the limit then I need to spend more. It's nonsense."

Typical Flavio – interesting character you should read his history with the Benneton family business – yes he is full of bluff and bluster with that sort of comment – of course he will spend what he needs.

Ciro - FIA can "dumb down" ANY series, after all they regulate all of the relevant ones, so they can "restore the order" at any time. The only threat could come from A1GP, but the bussiness links make this a slim possibility.

Well no they cannot Ciro and you would know that – whilst every territory has their FIA affiliates (we have CAMS) the Americans operate under their own authority and the ALMS doesn’t operate under FIA codes nor does IRL and any number of other formulae – I think its just a cordial arrangement with most and the FIA (I think they – the US - still think its run by the Frenchman lol)

Checkered - Those figures sound plausible, perhaps you should be contracted to manage sponsor relations by a team! The difference with F1, though, is that in Superbowl the ads are primarily directed at a fairly uniform market and due to the nature of the event can be sold and managed in a very concentrated fashion. Superbowl ads in themselves have become an "event", even. The dynamics of advertisement liveries and accompanying brand efficiency over a Global motorsport campaign are somewhat different and the "actionable customer interface treshold" can be higher. Some bang for the buck might be lost for the more diverse, complicated and costly efforts to turn reaction into action.

Yes they do sound on the money Checkered - $30 million for a 60 second commercial with the Superbowl is the going rate and if you get Janet dropping her boob out it’s a bonus – well maybe lol.
Here in Aussie F1 doesn’t run in Zone 1 (which is a $30-50,000 zone for a 30 second commercial) – our GPs run around 10.30pm or later so commercial costs are around $10k per 30 seconds – still not bad revenue over the 2 hour period given theres 14 minutes of commercials an hour.
BE’s overall audience numbers have been reasonably solid in this market over time as a rule for all GPs and the Australian GP collective numbers are 2.2 million over that particular weekend or 10% of the population however the others run around 2% of the market with exception of the Japanese GP for some reason which is around 6% of the market (mind you that’s live at 4pm on a Sunday afternoon) – but Im not too sure that’s the case in other markets although I have some numbers on those as well – I can publish last years numbers for here if anyones interested. Forget the sideshows that this entertainment circus presents from time to time – this entire thing is about how much revenue can I (BE) create and still maintain the show. BE’s main concerns are creating new markets via opening new markets in the Far East or wherever and subsequent TV deals – he has the equation down pat with prospects. His one archilles heal is the TV side – he struggles to maintain traditional TV markets whilst looking to open up new TV markets – there are various numbers on global TV – I think BE mentioned a 300 million audience but Renault (the car company not the GP team have numbers of 50 million globally as the real audience or lower). I see a chink also in his armour with his so called bent on conducting night races – that to me is ‘speculating’ and a man who’s looking at something new without a real clue of where to take the circus from here – anyway that’s just speculation – however if it was a new music artist I wouldn’t be signing it I think its doomed to fail in the charts :) .

OK Im probably totally off topic but theyre just my thoughts on the budget caps scenario – just dont hammer me too much and I apologise I havent worked out the quote function yeat so have just underlined each of the comments :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

John Stitch
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Re: FIA - Budget Caps from 2009.

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Budget Cap? :lol:

If the British Inland Revenue (Tax collectors) can have an entire department checking F1 for three years and can't find a thing wrong these guys will drive a coach and horses through any budget cap.

They have been fiddeling the books for years.