Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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manchild
manchild
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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jaho101 wrote:I mean, I like Kubica because I'm Polish. I always cheer for Maclaren over Ferrari when I started watching because I liked the underdog with the sympathetic drivers (i.e. Mika, Kimi). I don't think the problem is with who's cheering for who, but how they heckle the opposition in this case. The biggest problems they fans have is, unlike when Fernando was battling Schumaher, his relationship with Hamilton is a lot more full of controversy than it should be.
But you like the sport, you know details about it, you know its history, you want to learn more etc. People I talked about don't. They are following F1 only here and now without any interest in past or future neither for technical aspect of the sport and F1 is technical sport at first, before anything else.

Just like when I switch TV channel to football (accidentally) - 22 guys with different names chasing ball around the filed and trying to get it in net. I now there are specific positions among players, tactics, assault or defense approaches but I have no idea how that functions and I don't care.

You support Kubica because he is your countryman but certainly because he is in sport you find interesting even without Kubica in it (being a member on f1technical proves it). I can't imagine that someone likes any sport in which some of his countryman participate (Figure skating comes to my mind), right?

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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Hamilton is the most hated driver in Spain, period.

Most people see him in the light of what they think he did last year: for most people, he damaged all championship hopes of Alonso beyond description, not only in 2007, but probably in 2008 and who knows for how many years more.

Moreover, people in Spain expected some respect from a team with the history of McLaren toward "their" champion, but to no avail.

Spaniards also feel that the cheating at McLaren was of unbelievable proportions and that Alonso denounced a team policy, not a rogue employee. The signs that were taken from the stands by police criticized Hamilton and Dennis, but contained no offenses, I saw them.

What these signs declared was that it's hard to swallow the idea that a team so controlled and ellaborated in its processes suddenly found (when caught by FIA and not before) what the whole "spaniard" driving team knew.

It's also hard to swallow the idea of Hamilton being so innocent, after driving for so many years for the team. Apparently, what was vox populi inside the team, Hamilton did not know. It's easy to think he is hypocrit and that's what the signs were about. This kind of protest was muddied by the faction of people that added insults like "---".

Yes, yes, I know the story in England is different. I'm not taking sides here. It's easy to criticize ANY side on the McLaren-Alonso story and you know I did not do it HERE, "in private", so to speak, when we discussed that issue.

Now, I've lived in Spain for many, many years and I know that's a problem everywhere in Europe: every time you make a mistake and you happen to be coloured, then you can expect the same attitude from the "inferiority complex" guys. Racists, they exist, they live across the whole world, they're not going to disappear. If Alonso was treated as a dog for being spaniard, Hamilton could not expect less for being black, from the same kind of people.

On the other hand, I've not heard Hamilton being particularly proud of his Grenada heritage, but I do not read all newspapers. The impression I have is that he considers himself a briton, not even a small concession toward the Caribbean people I've seen from him (how about a small flag?). If I ran as a spaniard, something colombian I would carry, believe me.

It's so good to know that FIA does not tolerate racism and discrimination! I would like to know the many blacks and women that direct, marshall and drive at their championships... Actually, I would LOVE to know them. I'm all ears. Specially given the political history of their CEO. Sir Oswald, his wife and children, Max included, were frequent guests of Franco. I wasn't and I'm spaniard.

I also did not campaigned for "Free speech for fascists" during the 60's. My family was too busy trying to have a democracy in Spain. We had not the time for that kind of work.

Sorry for the rant, but what I really do not tollerate is hidden racism. If FIA wanted to give power and respect to people of colour, minorities and women, they could have started ages ago, not last week. They could start by electing a president without the story of Mr. Mosley, or by showing someone in the podium ceremony that is not a white, christian male. Is that so hard to do? Even the pitbabes are all white! The rest is purely for the press.
Ciro

manchild
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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http://www.f1technical.net/news/8191
FIA wrote:The FIA shall refrain from manifesting racial, political or religious discrimination in the course of its activities and from taking any action in this respect.
Oh really?! What about doing absolutely nothing for years against organizers of Bahrain GP who prohibit team members who are Jews to enter their country?! That's immeasurably worse than having fans shouting racial insults because in that case at least you can compete in full power, with all team members.

mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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What happened in spain is unwelcome but not a surprise. This type of thing has been going on for years (especially in football). I can name a few black footballers who have been personally attacked this way both on and off the pitch in spain. Sadly in spain there doesnt seem to be much outcry against this kind of behaviour.
Indeed when there was an outcry in the UK about this, the response of the spanish media was mainly to try to justify it, play it down or claim they do the same in the UK (or that they are worse) and this also now seem to to be response of this Forum and what I find what I find even more surprising and unbelievable.

Principessa wrote:
I really don't believe its on a racial base that they are insulting Hamilton. I really believe it is because theyfeel that Hamilton and Dennis have been holding their idol (Fernando Alonso) back last season. I really don't believe its because Hamilton is black.
Regardless of what he may or may not have done. They paint their faces black and call him "negro de mierda" or "puto negro" and you dont think its because he is black? A man is called a "--- etc" and the justification is that 'oh, its not because he black but because"we dont like him", que? When in fact this should be roundly and unequivocally condemmed without mincing words etc. The should be absolutely no justification for this.
Ciro wrote:
Now, I've lived in Spain for many, many years and I know that's a problem everywhere in Europe: every time you make a mistake and you happen to be coloured, then you can expect the same attitude from the "inferiority complex" guys. Racists, they exist, they live across the whole world, they're not going to disappear. If Alonso was treated as a dog for being spaniard, Hamilton could not expect less for being black, from the same kind of people.

On the other hand, I've not heard Hamilton being particularly proud of his Grenada heritage, but I do not read all newspapers. The impression I have is that he considers himself a briton, not even a small concession toward the Caribbean people I've seen from him (how about a small flag?). If I ran as a spaniard, something colombian I would carry, believe me.

It's so good to know that FIA does not tolerate racism and discrimination! I would like to know the many blacks and women that direct, marshall and drive at their championships... Actually, I would LOVE to know them. I'm all ears. Specially given the political history of their CEO. Sir Oswald, his wife and children, Max included, were frequent guests of Franco. I wasn't and I'm spaniard.
Who knows whether or not Hamilton is innocent in all that saga but assuming (this being key) he isn't, then vent your anger, but within reason (though I think any kind of personal attack is uncalled for).
This goes way beyond what is accpetable or even reasonable. So these, what I call 'mitigating' comments from Ciro I find are at best disingenuous from someone I consider well reasoned, informed and so articulate that I have one of his satirical pieces or rants framed.

What does all this mean? I cannot see what this has to do with anything but yes he does consider himself a briton. is british and should be proud of that. I fail completely to see the significance of
where/why/how he chooses (or not) or to display his heritage (or origins of his dad if you wish).
Please tell me you are not trying to imply he is less proud of the black side of his family than he is of the white side. I am no fan of the FIA, but the fact that there are no black people or women marshalls and such, indicates nothing. For all I know there may well be no ....Fijian, Kiwi, or belgian marshalls and such. This being the case that should not imply the FIA is anti kiwi, fiji or belgian. Who knows may be black people and women are not interested in marshalling.
Ciro' I have the utmost respects for your views on most if not all discussions and forgive me if it seems I imply you tolerate this kind of behaviour. I am not. What I find surprising is that your comments muddy and detract from the issue of this despicable and inexscuable behaviour.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

manchild
manchild
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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mcdenife wrote:Who knows may be black people and women are not interested in marshalling.
That's a racist suggestion too - bringing in connection lack of interest of whole race with particular activity.
mcdenife wrote:The fact that there are no black people or women marshalls and such, indicates nothing.
The fact that there were no white people or women picking cotton as slaves also indicates nothing?

mcdenife
mcdenife
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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Manchild wrote:
The fact that there were no white people or women picking cotton as slaves also indicates nothing?
I fail to see your point. Perhaps you'd like to tell us what it indicates.

My point is not that the FIA is or is not racist but rather that you cannot make the conclusion that they must be simply because there are no black marshalls etc.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

manchild
manchild
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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mcdenife wrote:Manchild wrote:
The fact that there were no white people or women picking cotton as slaves also indicates nothing?
I fail to see your point. Perhaps you'd like to tell us what it indicates.
Who knows maybe white people and women are not interested in picking cotton and slaving.

mcdenife
mcdenife
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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aside from the fact that there were white people (men, women and children) picking cotton and yes, as slaves, I still fail to see your point.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

manchild
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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Well, you explain lack of black people in certain areas of western society suggesting that whole black race is perhaps indifferent like that has the stronger foundation in logic than traditional "white only" tradition for upper class activities.

Tennis, motor racing, cricket, yachting, polo, horse racing... same pattern.

"White only" still exists. Racism is traditional - not something occurring here and there caused by something. That's what I'm suggesting. If someone dislikes some black person for something he/she did and if first reaction is to shout "---" that automatically proves that the white person in question has racism built in his personality since it was his spontaneous reaction.

nae
nae
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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the pictures i saw where defiantly of racist intent
black faces, and offensive slogan (all be it translated for me)
this sort of thing is easy to see and thus easy to deal with

on the whole rich sport front it is harder to prove that the
under representation of the minorities (excuse the sudo British
politically correct term)is ingrained from the top down.
it is hard enough to brake into motor sport in any case without
the added difficulty of 'the race card' being used against you
(the muttering at the track side, the lack of respect from fans etc)
however i feel the Hamiltons will have used this to their advantage
and resultantly have done there talking on the track.

it still remains predominantly a white mans sport and without swinging the balance the other way it is hard to see how to change that.

it is laughable to suggest that Hamilton is implicit in the spying saga when
the evidence that caught them out came from their 2 Spanish drivers emails discussing the implementation of the leaked data. lol

there is no place for racism in sport, that not what its about.
..?

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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Rob W wrote:This is the exact same reason Barack Obama will have a hard time if he gets to run for president - there are just too many muppet/red-necks who will gladly march blind-folded into any government other than one they see as being led by someone who is 'black'. Especially sad because this seems to even transcend political affiliations.
Off topic, but that's total and complete bullshit. Barack Obama is not liked by alot of people because he doesn't say --- except we need change, with hope we can be better. Never does he give a solution, just bullshit slogans. The guy is inexperienced, naive, fighting with the Clintons (talk about mud wrestling with pigs), and NEVER has he offered a plan for ANYTHING. My favorite thing about him and Hillary is they have been fighting like children. Ten year olds pointing fingers at one another. And he's supposed to be mature enough to run a whole country? Please, spare me. Racism has nothing to do with Obama, it's his lack of everything but slogans and catchphrases. I don't trust him cause he hasn't made a plan to do anything about the war in Iraq (which I was in so I'd like to hear what the plans are), the economy, the failing dollar, taxes, how the American government is screwing it's citizens daily in order to get votes or kickbacks, how they only cater to the rich and big business. Where are his answers for these things?

And I quote from his Super Bowl ad last night:
"We want an end to this war and we want diplomacy and peace,' Obama says in a voice over from a speech in Austin, Texas. "Not only can we save the environment, we can create jobs and opportunity. We're tired of fear; we're tired of division. We want something new. We want to turn the page. The world as it is is not the world as it has to be."

Again, useless crap from Obama. This is his M O. Saying things like this mean jack squat to me. It's unfortunate that there are so many brainwashed sheep in this country that listen to this drivel.

Rednecks and racism have jack to do with that moron. Hope and wishes never solved anything, hard work and perseverance do. Screw that idiot. If me not liking a black candidate for President because he's an insult throwing crybaby, and only speaks in bullshit/lies/slogans, then I guess I'm a racist.
Last edited by Ray on 04 Feb 2008, 20:35, edited 2 times in total.

nae
nae
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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must say that comes across as a considered and well thought out , if off topic, argument
..?

ben_watkins
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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@Ciro - you need to see this on the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 225523.stm

Now tell me that those people with facepaint + t-shirts with slogans aren't being racist?

Stupid, ignorant people are finding a stupid and ignorant way to vent their nationalistic anger at someone who upstaged their beloved Alonso, over and over again last year. How did Hamilton do it? He drove the car faster, pissing Alonso off to the point he tried to blackmail the team.

Racism has NEVER had a place in sport and NEVER will!

Spain and any other country who allows racism to occur at any level of sporting events, should have the privilage of hosting the event removed.
BWP
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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Racist fans of F1 (and most other sports)

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C'mon, friends, this is a theme to tiptoe around, please. If I seem to try to find a reasonable explanation, is because I think this is normally the better way, in this and in most other bussiness.

Some people thinks that my position as latino about racism means I'm racist or that I condone racism. Ha! Are you nuts? :lol: C'mon, breathe...

On thread, I pointed out to the same fact that is repeated three or four times in the BBC link that Ben provided to us: '"There were about 55,000 fans present over the three days of testing," said Croft. "(Some) were chanting nasty stuff and booing him when he made his way from the garage to the McLaren area at the back. We've never seen that at Formula One events. The officials at the circuit drafted in extra security guards to the stands and put some fences around the team area."'

I remember another booing from the fans, but I cannot reproduce the photo from USA 2005, respecting this forum as much as I can. Here it is, anyway: http://images.gpupdate.net/large/47217.jpg

This means to me that spanish fans (at least the sample at the track) hate Hamilton guts, racists included. :)

Or, by some leap of imagination, will you conclude that the 55.000 persons present were ALL racists? Has the news become that ALL spaniards at Catalunya said racists epithets? The whole stand was booing him.

Calling them young or naive falls in the same falacy. Are ALL of them young or naive?

No, my fellow forumers, nothing short of Alonso "redemption" this year can calm the diehard spaniard fans.

The sad truth is that the capital Hamilton has with the "fan base" outside of England is extremely low. He, certainly in an unjust way, carries a heavy weight on his shoulders, but if some driver can be called The McLaren driver is him.

It is a consequence of McLaren cheating and of the juggling they performed to come out with their honour intact. I like the "Ferrari way" :) much more: when caught, you're caught and you're the bad guy, you live with it. You don't blame Massa, for example, or "rogue employees" to discover six months later that everybody and his cat knew.

Trying to blurr it by taking a photo of three morons black faced does not hide the fact that other thousands were calling Hamilton a cheater. Under that circumstances, a racist can impunely say whatever he wishes, a thing that in a "normal" GP would be impossible.

To the comments to my post, I would like to add two things:

Arguing that "my country is not racist, but Spain is" is a thing bordering dellusion. There are racists even in Latin America, where nobody is white, me included.

Secondly, if FIA is not racist, in the sense that does not forbid people with less income to become racers, the sad truth is that there are, how should I put it, tinges of discrimination, in the sense that it has started to favor blatantly those with money in the last two decades, in what most people here agrees is a sport. How can that be?

Europe is heading this sport, to be frank. Where are they guiding it?

It's a sport or it isn't? If you favor money over athletic abilities (blatantly, I repeat, and without any "compensation mechanisms"), then it is a sport in the same way yatch racing is: not for me, or for 95% of the people, who are not rich.

Another sad truth we have to change, consequence of the aforemetioned, is that the "pinnacle" thing has taken away the FIA from karting and the fans from racing. Both, FIA and fans, are obsessed with TV. The same thing happened to football and look where it took it: to hooliganism.
Ciro

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Principessa
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Ben watkins I can totally understand your point, as I am also against racism of ANY kind. But you have to be honest:
Spain and any other country who allows racism to occur at any level of sporting events, should have the privilage of hosting the event removed.
How can this happen? You can't tell me that if you go to a football match in the UK you never hear racist comments. Telling this would be a lie. How horrible it is, racism has been part of our history and society for a very long time and although most of the people are not racists, a lot of people still are. And those are the ones that shout these things during the F1 tests, during football matches,....

The only thing that organisers of sporting events can try is to put a stop to this, but this is not easy. If you have a crowd of (for example) 1000 people on 1 grandstand, how can you exactly know who shouted what? In Belgium they try to put a stop to it during football matches as the referees can stop the match for several minutes if some of the player or the referee himself are being abused. Something similar happened at the Circuit de Catalunya as the officials tried their best to put a stop to the Hamilton abuse.