Real Racing Or Are We Being Fooled Again

[Conceptual]

Well, it's not suddenly become bike racing - but I see a big improvement.

I don't need to see actually overtakes to enjoy the racing. After all, if the faster cars start ahead, they are pretty much going to finish ahead. When did you last see someone slow overtake someone fast

What I have seen is more overtaking (can't back this up with any hard facts) - in some cases KERS cars making moves on non KERS cars. I have also seen more cars running close together and drivers having a go.

I would honestly say that (given the obvious limitations with carbon brakes and high downforce cars) the racing has improved with cars more able to get together on the race track.

I quite like F1 as it is right now.

Sato passing Alonso at Montreal 07 quickly comes to mind...

I agree that "Real Racing" is in the eye of the beholder, but personally, my draw to F1 is the technology, and the science of breaking the laws of nature down to a manipulatable process. I agree that the regs define the look of the cars (I personally LOVE the 1996 look). Indycar/CCWS used alot of underbody downforce that led to some great CLOSE racing, but the Bernie/Max show has an issue with looking like a copycat. Although I understand maintaining a pinnacle image, denying that others can concieve of and proove working concepts that benefit the on track action is pretty arrogant. Once again, I would use the word bigotry here to define this problem.

I actually watched the Talledega race this weekend, and was amazed at how close these cars run (nut2butt), but I am NOT a fan of brute force racing.

I dream of a day that there is a true pinnacle series that allows for any concepts to be utilized, and where politics do not influence the outcome of the race. In a competitive environment, there can only be 1 "perfect", but there can be MANY 99%, and that is what I believe F1 is. The pursuit of the perfect solution package.

Unfortunately, the tech regs are unclear, political, crybaby mollifying, and cost centric (high cost).

I hope that the new IndyCar regs give me the sport that I dream of, and I do have my fingers crossed!

PS: Don't worry. It will not be long until the Simulators become a televised series. That way there is no real materials involved, and only a handful of engineers/modelers are necessary to compete in the series. It is almost here I am sure, and it will probably be more exciting than F1 is at the moment...

[Scotracer]

F1 to me meant ultimate speed with noise and passion.

Now? We've got pseudo-fast racing cars that not only look terrible but sound about as harmonious as a fat man farting and F1 is now as passionate as a business conference on toilet paper sales.

I've lost a lot of interest.

What racing series are faster than F1? Are the cars no longer loud? These car look worse than the late 70's, & 80's monstrocities that were on track?

Your favorite team or driver maybe underperforming but that doesnt mean F1 is any less impressive than it has ever been.

The cars now are faster now than when they had 50% more power 20 years ago.

They may be loud but they sound horrendous compared to the Ferrari V12s or Honda V10s of just a few years ago. There may be no series faster than F1 at the moment but GP2 isn't all that far behind and they are 1/10th the cost and interest level.

I just want the engines to be pushed to their breaking point at what now would probably be 22,000rpm these days...not a cost-effective 18,000rpm. Am I the only one that feels that's a bit depressing?

Maybe I'm just too much of a fanatic...

Oh and my driver retired 3 years ago so I don't care about any driver now.

[megz]

Oh and my driver retired 3 years ago so I don't care about any driver now.

JV fan I take it....

[Giblet]

We're only in race 4, and 2 of the 4 races were wet, and one of those wet races was only a half race as well.

I think it's too early to say the racing is still processional based on what we've seen, and I don't seem to remember last year sucking.

22,000rpm engines is right around the theoretical maximum for ICE's. Merc engineers a few years ago were talking about the air the motor would be pumping near the speed of sound at that RPM.

There wasn't anywhere else for engineers to go. If they were still spending as much cash to make their engines whine and explode, we would have even less teams.

[Scotracer]

Oh and my driver retired 3 years ago so I don't care about any driver now.

JV fan I take it....

Shumy 4lyf

22k is the theoretical maximum of ICEs? How does one explain the Nitro RC engines that can rev up to 40,000rpm?

[Saribro]

22,000rpm engines is right around the theoretical maximum for ICE's. Merc engineers a few years ago were talking about the air the motor would be pumping near the speed of sound at that RPM.

Haven't you been corrected on this before? That statement is only valid for the size of the engine they were talking about. A smaller swept volume would result in lower demands for air at the same engine speed, thus allowing higher revs.

[Scotracer]

22,000rpm engines is right around the theoretical maximum for ICE's. Merc engineers a few years ago were talking about the air the motor would be pumping near the speed of sound at that RPM.

Haven't you been corrected on this before? That statement is only valid for the size of the engine they were talking about. A smaller swept volume would result in lower demands for air at the same engine speed, thus allowing higher revs.

Quite.

You are not going to get choked flow at 22,000rpm in a 2.4 V8

[Giblet]

I didn't make it up.

This was said by Mercedes engineers the year they hit 21,000 in testing.

I know nothing about nitro engines, or the speed of the air going in to them, but I do know that the next problem the they were faced with if the engine speeds kept increasing, was the intake air speed nearing the speed of sound.

If I was corrected, I wasn't here to read it.

[Chaparral]

Its good to read the various responses from everyone as they are very varied - I sense that Ive been following F1 out of duty also for a number of years and motor sport (4 or 2 wheels) is in my blood so I try to get something (anything) out of all forms and Im probably being a bit harsh on F1 this year as to be honest early signs are that its a helluva lot better than the past decade from which I hardly remember any highlights from - I was bored senseless. And being an Australian Webber winning wouldnt change my outlook

I think my thought process is around what do I expect out of the racing (be it any format 4 or 2 wheeled) or what got me interested in the first place and I have to go back to when I was 8 years old in 1962 and I picked up a book on racing at my uncles place (basically a history of the 30s to end of 50s period) and I was mesmerised by the machines and these men who drove them which sort of fitted in with my fascination of the WWII warplanes and the guys who flew them all very brave men in the air and on the race track. My next recollection is sitting in the kitchen at breakfast reading in the paper about Jack Brabham winning race after race in a car he built himself and taking a third WDC & a WCC in 1966 and I now 12 years old. That very same year I saw John Frankenhiemer's movie Grand Prix and I was hooked even further plus I discovered Road & Track and I saw the Chaparral 2E for the first time - my god how can someone build something so innovative and beautiful so I went looking back into the history of this guy Jim Hall and his Chaparral's and furthering my knowledge of grand prix racing and the many drivers/teams/cars involved and all their specs - by now I was history - hooked for life and that expanded into other forms of motor sport (World Sports Cars, Le Mans, Indianapolis, NASCAR etc) + two wheeled racing - even at that early age I understood 'power to weight ratio' and figured I could never afford a car that would perform as I wanted when I grew old enough for a license so a motorbike was definitely the route to go for me.

I then began to read all about some great American racers who raced flat track and circuit (Dave Aldana, Don Emde, Dick Mann etc) and about (Hailwood, Agostini, Duke, Surtees, our guy Kel Carruthers) and a little known Fin Jarno Saarinen who became a real hero to me plus a host of others . We then in the late 60's (I think 67 from memory) first received B&W TV in the small regional town I was born in and weekly you would have a half hour highlights package from the US ABC Sports which had NASCAR & Can Am plus the odd Indy 500 and long distant sports car races so that was probably my first exposure to a constant source of motor sport and its grown from there. Right through the 60's 70's 80's and early part of the 90's I think whats been the fascination for me with F1 has been the innovation thats been applied when the guidelines were definitely much broader and open to interpretation - men like Chapman, Gordon Murray etal who built some mind blowing machinery in their time and later John Barnard etc (not to mention the great drivers over the period) - that innovation has gone from not only from F1 but also many other formula's around the globe and its now all about parity and cost cuts in their strictest forms.

Its not just F1 I struggle to maintain an interest in I have the same problems with our premier series V8 Supercars here where everything is parity based and they're now going the cost cut route as well - mind you the racing can still be fast and furious a majority of the time and this year Dunlop (another single tyre supplier series) are about to introduce a 'soft option' tyre that is supposedly 4-5 seconds a lap quicker than the standard compound which will certainly mix things up - again however the powers that be are playing with the rules 'to increase the show' by only allowing that soft option tyre to be used at certain races within the series - begs the question - why not all races - stop --- about with the rules just for the sake of it - F1 is no different. I still believe though that having a couple of tyre manufacturers is the way to go as yes certain car designs can be optimised to a particular tyre/manufacturer which gives you a broader base of possibly 'on the pace teams' coming from slightly different angles in design and engineering - I dont see anything wrong with that - ok costs but whose costs - its the tyre manufacturers cost certainly not the teams - to me 'the car design' is about the total package and that includes the rubber on each corner - Im sure either Goodyear or Michelin would put their hand up again to be involved - tyre wars - good stuff for us spectators and fans of the sport. One tyre supplier has the same affect as having a single engine or chassis supplier - there's no latitude so therefore you have very little difference between teams/cars/designs and you keep going round in a ever decreasing circle and diminishing return etc etc. MotoGP have gone to a single tyre supplier from this season and they will find the same happening to that series over time just keep watching.

Im all for a reasonable cost cap whatever that may be - provided you give the teams the option of a broader set of power plant options - by all means set them a capacity limit (lets say 3 litre for NA engines, 1.4 litre for turbo + add a diesel and rotary parity capacity category) - then lets see who really are the innovators - maybe we will discover the next Gordon Murray or Chapman - at present these engineer and design guys must be near asleep at the wheel with boredom and the grey matter rotting. With the aero guidelines well Im not sure - Ive always been a ground effects guy so I would probably allow a little more on that side of things - I like the current moveable wing thing though.

I could go on for ages but I wont - in all looking back maybe its not the 'toe to toe' racing Im missing as yes its been similar in the last 4 decades where certain teams/cars/drivers ran away with a race and hid - and there were numerous tight tussles between drivers at various races over the same period - maybe its the 'wow factor' when it comes to innovation and design Im missing - there hasnt been anything like that since the mid 90s from my memory. In saying that Im pretty sure that is it as when it comes to racing I still think Formula Ford provides more excitement/entertainment every time I see them race and they do race - and yet with it we have a spec series - why is it then that F1 appears so boring.

OK that will do from me before you all fall asleep but its a good discussion taking place on this

[xpensive]

I agree in principle Chap, F1 has become extremely technically predictable, which makes it rather boring at times.

Personally, I think it is down to a couple of things, first you have the advent of the big-budget manufacturers, bringing science and research to a sport which was pretty much a trial-end-error thing in the 60s and 70s.

Secondly, the EvilTwins wanted ot dumb it down to attract a bigger share of the "football-fans", there were simply not enough geeks like us around to support the hunger of the new profiteers entering the scene.

As much as I hate to admit it, the all Cosworth-powered and basically "fit-in-the-box", kit-car era from 68 to 82 brought fantastic cars and racing, didn't it?

[Chaparral]

As much as I hate to admit it, the all Cosworth-powered and basically "fit-in-the-box", kit-car era from 68 to 82 brought fantastic cars and racing, didn't it?

X I must admit that worked for me also and you still had Ferrari BRM etc do their own thing engine wise . As an addendum to that last post of mine I think Ive been spoiled as I was lucky enough to see some of the Tasman Series races here in Australia back in 1967/68 which were the current for the time GP drivers (Clark, Hill, Stewart, Rodriguez, Amon, Attwood, Rindt, Brabham, Hulme, Mclaren etc) racing their GP cars albeit with 2.5 litre versions of the GP engines then seeing 7 GPs of the modern era at Adelaide starting in 1985 and being at that time again lucky enough to be able to spend time in the pits/pitlane and paddock with some of the teams/drivers and dinner with the Ferrari team at La Trattoria in north Adelaide etc - and other times being able to spend time with some of our great touring car drivers due to a TV production crew I used to moonlight on weekends for - having dinner with Barry Sheene one night and having our Aussie soccer legend Craig Johnson with him as we had more then enough to drink whilst having a chuckle at our host (Eltons) expense..........yes more than spoiled......yes its definitely the wow factor Im missing poor misguided sod I am

[xpensive]

There you go, when I would chop a bodypart off to see Chis Amon in the Ferrari over the wooden-bridge at Longford.

[Chaparral]

Hey X - I never got to Longford - I saw Warwick Farm, Surfers Paradise and Lakeside but heres some Longford history for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3spse04rWE

[xpensive]

Bloody computer has no flash, why I will try another one later.

Anyway, I heard so many anecdotes about the track at Launcestion, with one wooden-bridge and two railway crossings?

[DaveKillens]

Interesting post Chaparral, and although I am just four years older, my life path followed a very similar path. Don't forget Gary Nixon on that list of great American bike racers. I rooted for him from reading my magazines.

I just want the engines to be pushed to their breaking point at what now would probably be 22,000rpm these days...not a cost-effective 18,000rpm. Am I the only one that feels that's a bit depressing?

Maybe I'm just too much of a fanatic...

Scotracer, I feel your pain bro. Although my brain comprehends the logic behind changing the qualifying format, my heart, soul, and passion belongs to the days when qualifying meant going as quick as possible with a car set up solely for that purpose. Today, it's a muted enthusiasm I feel when watching qualifying, because I am aware that the cars are handicapped. One of my favorite moments was watching Montoya qualifying at Monza in 2002. With fumes in his tank, a qualifying engine and tires, it was excitement on a grand scale. My spine still shivers when I think about it.

PS: Don't worry. It will not be long until the Simulators become a televised series. That way there is no real materials involved, and only a handful of engineers/modelers are necessary to compete in the series. It is almost here I am sure, and it will probably be more exciting than F1 is at the moment...

Conceptual, it is closer than most think. Right now, there are outfits broadcasting online sim races. Check this out.
http://www.rlmtv.com/ Sim Racing Television.