Scuderia McLaren

[nudger]

You have to believe.

there was a rumour at suzuka that hamilton was going to go to Brawn if K.R was signed ... i didnt believe that either

[sticky667]

McLaren buying BMW's engine outfit isn't rebranding the BMW engine or even using their naming rights from what I've read. BMW is leaving F1 and Mclaren is buying their engine department to be renamed McLaren HPE or something to that effect. The point of having their own engine outfit is to become a constructor for F1 and their road cars, not a customer team of BMW engines.

They will be Vodafone McLaren Racing.

you are talking as if its fact...havnt seen the slightest shred of evidence to suggest it is...unless someone can enlighten me on summut i missed.
i find it very hard to believe. first, the engine design will be obsolete for F1 in a few yrs, second, as a road car engine...in a £160,000 car? i dont think so

I didn't say they were using the F1 engine in the road car. There is speculation they are planning to purchase the entire engine division. That would include the foundry and the designs most likely with personnel included. They would be able to forge their own engines for F1 and the road car in-house, similar to Ferrari.

[Giblet]

Possibly.
McLaren did not want to sell a bigger than 40% stake to Mercedes(who wanted a controlling share) so Mercedes have been looking for a team to form a silver arrows team around. The Honda exit has made the Brawn team an ideal purchase especially with Ross Brawn at the helm.
Expect to see Brawn GP rebranded Mercedes F1 Racing by 2011 latest.
Ross Brawn has been alluding to the fact that they have everything in place for a secure future from 2010, meaning that the tie up with Mercedes is long term and probably the controlling share Mercedes wants.

McLaren has long held the ambition of becoming a full blown sportscar manufacturer. For various reasons they have not quite got there. Possibly due to resources for the new road car taking up much of the total operating budget. If they buy BMW's F1 engine design and bring over to Woking key staff then it will secure their longer term ambitions. Buying an engine like this is way cheaper than developing your own. It would be a missed opportunity and they could then offer the engine as customer unit to one of the new teams or even Red Bull Racing.

This could well happen over the 2009/2010 winter, meaning that Vodafone McLaren will be an immediate reality as will SAP Mercedes F1.

The outlook for F1 is that now there are more manufacturers in F1.

Scuderia Santander Ferrari SPa
Vodafone McLaren (ex BMW engines)
SAP Mobil Mercedes (ex Brawn)
Panasonic Toyota (possible exit)
TotalFinaElf Renault (possible exit)

and the customer teams:
Williams GP engineering (Cosworth)
Red Bull Racing
Force India Mercedes
Scuderia Torro Ross Ferrari
Manor F1 (Cosworth)
Campos F1 (Cosworth)
Lotus F1 (Cosworth)
Sauber Ferrari F1??
Prodrive F1???

$100 million dollar fine didn't help expedite things along I guess either. That is too much money, even for Mclaren to not notice. It's not like they have a blank cheque from Marlboro like Ferrari does, racing of the back of misery and death.

All the other teams dropped big tobacco, I don't think it's right that Ferrari are allowed to do this stealth branding.

[nudger]

as i understand it, the entire division basically is the F1 engine. those more in the know about the inner workings of bmw than i will tell you that any rumour to the contary is pure marketing.
the mp4-12c uses a menard engine, which itself uses a mercedes block...cant see them getting the tooling for that

[Pup]

Perhaps. BMW has dedicated F1 facilities at both their Landshut and Munich plants; however, they did make an effort to integrate them as best they could into their existing production facilities. I believe this is especially so for the casting facilities in Lanshut, where those "facilities" may simply be a dedicated furnace and production line. The Munich facilities are at a separate campus, which is shared with their other sport groups though I believe it is primarily for F1 and was built for them.

So while it may be true that there isn't exactly a "factory" to buy, if the equipment - production and testing - is purely used for the F1 program, then it could be sold off and moved.

But I am reminded somewhat of end of the film "24 hr. party people" when London Records comes to offer millions to buy them out, and Tony Wilson has to admit that there's nothing to buy but the table they're sitting at.

Some info...

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/3113/617/
http://www.f1network.net/main/s107/st66401.htm
http://www.worldcarfans.com/10403061126 ... n-one-mold

[raceman]

You have to believe.

there was a rumour at suzuka that hamilton was going to go to Brawn if K.R was signed ... i didnt believe that either

[Raptor22]

Perhaps. BMW has dedicated F1 facilities at both their Landshut and Munich plants; however, they did make an effort to integrate them as best they could into their existing production facilities. I believe this is especially so for the casting facilities in Lanshut, where those "facilities" may simply be a dedicated furnace and production line. The Munich facilities are at a separate campus, which is shared with their other sport groups though I believe it is primarily for F1 and was built for them.

So while it may be true that there isn't exactly a "factory" to buy, if the equipment - production and testing - is purely used for the F1 program, then it could be sold off and moved.

But I am reminded somewhat of end of the film "24 hr. party people" when London Records comes to offer millions to buy them out, and Tony Wilson has to admit that there's nothing to buy but the table they're sitting at.

Some info...

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/3113/617/
http://www.f1network.net/main/s107/st66401.htm
http://www.worldcarfans.com/10403061126 ... n-one-mold

Physical assets are not the only saleable items. Intellectual property, blue prints all fall under assets in R$D.

BMW could sell tooling, documentation and licenses to patents(pending) to McLaren. What McLaren does with this there after is their business.

The physical engine is the product of a production process.That process is also saleable. The human resources may or may not be part of the deal. UNder German law, the human resources either have to be included in the sale or have to be absorbed into BMW.
I have a few chums who work for BMW and according to them the F1 engine assembly is done in Munich at the BMW Motorsports plant. Many components are outsourced so in the case of a sale to McLaren, it would purely be intellectual property, documentation and patent licenses under the sale agreement.

Now the comment about the damage the $100millionUS fine has done is overstated. Yes it's a vast some of money that was absorbed by Mercedes, Vodafone, SAP, Mobil, Santander and McLaren. McLaren it self probably paid only a equity percentage of the fine which was likely around $20million US (the amount is not fact, my opinion but the concept is fact), an amount that is fairly easily and quickly absorbed. A testimony to this is how illustrated by the amount of development they put into a poor 2009 car to make it a race winner; new bits every race!

Financially McLaren is in a good position to buy the BMW F1 program since it is a good investment for the shareholders. As a full blown manufacturer they add value to the brand and increase the assets on the books, so its not a matter of affordability, its a matter of business strategy.
They can, and I feel they will go it alone.

Have a look backin history.
Project 4 bought a controlling share in McLaren in 1980 to form McLaren Project 4(MP4)
They first used Cosworth, then Porsche engines(branded Techniques d'Avant Garde,TAG) in the Turbo era.
Then the move to Honda, a brief spell with Cosworth (successful) and Peugeot engines before hopping into bed with Mercedes in 1995. Each engine supplier step has been a step upward. The TAG era was the closest they came to having their "own" engine because TAG isowned by Mansour Ojeh (spelling) who owns a large stake in McLaren Int.
Buying BMW F1 engine technology is actually full circle for McLaren but the time is right to achieve this.

[tarzoon]

Could it be that McLaren is buying this with all the IP so that they have access to BMW road car engine know-how? I understand that these are separate entities, but it could be handy for a state-of-the-art road car with, say, electromagnetic valves.

[Raptor22]

TArzoon,

there is a very small relationship between a road engine and F1 engine. Firstly the firing order is very different, bore stroke configurations are far apart and F1 engines are not sensitive to RON but more to MON (Moor Octane Number or high load knock).
A high performance engine for a road car is far easier to build than an F1 engine, hence auto manufacturers like the nature of F1 to teach engineers how to build good engines. With the limited scope of development allowed the F1 engine is now less attractive for this purpose.

I doubt that they will buy the F1 engine for road car engine technology for a direct transfer of technology. Its more about gainingaccess to an engine that can be developed inhouse and teach engineers to biuld a brand new road engine from the ground up. However this is not needed as VAG has done with it's FSI, TFSI and TSi engines by taking awards for best engines without being involved in F1. Its all about brand identity and the approach you want the market to see you taking.

the average VW driver does notgive hoot about F1, or maybe in passing. The Average Ferrari driver is probably more interested. The owners of McLaren MP4/12c's will feel better about their car knowing that there is more to it than just another kit car like a Noble or a Koenigsegg etc...

McLaren could probably be a winning team with Cosworth power but hat does not match their brand aspirations.

We must rememer that these are business men. they are in the business or building race cars and winning. So building a winning brand means means that you need to keep evolving and the next evolutionary step for McLaren is as a full blown manufacturer.

Buying the BMW IP is just a cheaper way of doing it with lower risk. In the current economic climate, investors prefer low risk...

[Pup]

I agree with all of that, though I've heard that the Mahle engine used in the MP4/12c was designed in fact to be a racing engine. One could also imagine that McLaren might see some practical or market advantage to sharing more bits and pieces between their F1 and road going efforts.

To me, the stumbling blocks are rather price, drivability and overall engine philosophy. I can't imagine an F1 engine being particularly affordable nor drivable in a road car. And McLaren, and BMW interestingly, are on a smaller block/turbo path for their road cars, which has little to do with F1 lumps at the moment.

No, I think that if McLaren are indeed looking to buy BMW's or anyone's engine facilities/equipmet/IP/etc. it will be purely for their F1 efforts. After all, how much crossover is there really between Ferrari's F1 and road car development?

[segedunum]

there was a rumour at suzuka that hamilton was going to go to Brawn if K.R was signed ... i didnt believe that either

I don't think that speculation was completely beyond the realms of fantasy and it doesn't take a genius to work out that Hamilton would be rather miffed if it happened. I know everyone thinks that McLaren is Hamilton's team, but you can argue that it was Raikkonen's team before it was Hamilton's. He was a part of the McLaren set up while Raikkonen was driving there and Raikkonen still knows a lot of people within the team and vice versa.

Hamilton would be going to what is effectively the new Mercedes F1 team if he did.

[segedunum]

There is speculation they are planning to purchase the entire engine division. That would include the foundry and the designs most likely with personnel included. They would be able to forge their own engines for F1 and the road car in-house, similar to Ferrari.

Considering what's actually happened, that would make sense. McLaren's collaborations with Mercedes on road cars seem to have ceased completely, Mercedes wanted more control that McLaren wasn't going to give them, Ron Dennis has gone off to establish McLaren as a serious automotive maker without any help from Mercedes whatsoever and it's virtually an open secret that Mercedes is going to make Brawn the Mercedes F1 team. Whatever any of them says, you can join some serious dots from that.

In addition to the McLaren/Mercedes relationship cooling off you've also got BMW who seem to be in a bit of trouble and who need collaborations, to trim down and to sell off things they won't need. I also found it interesting that Martin Whitmarsh commented on BMW F1's supposed sale and was casting some serious doubt on it.

However, pulling the plug on Mercedes this season for next season is far, far too early. It would basically mean that McLaren don't have an engine to put in the car that they're designing right now. That's just too much to ask. I would expect them to keep Mercedes on board for the remaining couple of seasons and then let their relationship lapse and part ways until McLaren as a whole is seriously up and running.

[nudger]

I agree with all of that, though I've heard that the Mahle engine used in the MP4/12c was designed in fact to be a racing engine. One could also imagine that McLaren might see some practical or market advantage to sharing more bits and pieces between their F1 and road going efforts.

To me, the stumbling blocks are rather price, drivability and overall engine philosophy. I can't imagine an F1 engine being particularly affordable nor drivable in a road car. And McLaren, and BMW interestingly, are on a smaller block/turbo path for their road cars, which has little to do with F1 lumps at the moment.

No, I think that if McLaren are indeed looking to buy BMW's or anyone's engine facilities/equipmet/IP/etc. it will be purely for their F1 efforts. After all, how much crossover is there really between Ferrari's F1 and road car development?

its not a mahle engine, they are just a development/production contractor. the engine is a Menard ... its roots are in indy car racing.
there is talk that mclaren have already bought the I.P rights to that engine as it is, so although its origins are menard, it is a Mclaren engine.
and if its not going to have any road car connection, why bother going to the trouble of making their own? they have mercedes engines for another two years, even if merc want out of mclaren, they still get to use their engines. and why wouldnt merc wish to continue selling them engines anyways. there is gossip that one of the reasons merc want to have interests in two teams is so they can supply 4 teams their engines.

[nudger]

there was a rumour at suzuka that hamilton was going to go to Brawn if K.R was signed ... i didnt believe that either

I don't think that speculation was completely beyond the realms of fantasy and it doesn't take a genius to work out that Hamilton would be rather miffed if it happened. I know everyone thinks that McLaren is Hamilton's team, but you can argue that it was Raikkonen's team before it was Hamilton's. He was a part of the McLaren set up while Raikkonen was driving there and Raikkonen still knows a lot of people within the team and vice versa.

Hamilton would be going to what is effectively the new Mercedes F1 team if he did.

its got nothing to do with it being hamiltons team...why do you say he would be miffed if raikkonen went there? that is pure speculation without even any circumstancial evidence let alone anything else. so far as i know, hamilton has never made any overtures to the team who should be the other driver. But what does make it in the land of fantasy is the small matter of a contract untill 2012...on what grounds would he threaten to break that?
i dont think hamilton would care any more than kimi who his team mate was.

the whole kimi to mclaren story came about mainly becuase thats something santander were trying to bring about. I have not been convinced there was any real appetite for it from either mclaren or kimi themselves.

[segedunum]

its got nothing to do with it being hamiltons team...why do you say he would be miffed if raikkonen went there? that is pure speculation without even any circumstancial evidence...

The notion that there wouldn't be any uncomfortable shuffling in the Hamilton camp is well, well wide of the mark. After 2007 you have to wonder, and not all of what happened was Alonso's fault even though I think he was silly. It's perhaps at least part of the reason why Hamilton seems to be comfortable with Kovalainen and likes to overly praise him when there isn't any real need.

I have not been convinced there was any real appetite for it from either mclaren or kimi themselves.

Pardon? Where have you been? Raikkonen was asked about McLaren and he admitted that he would have no problem going back there, and Martin Whitmarsh has seemingly talked about little else:

"We went through it in 2007 and 2008. Kimi (Raikkonen) did a great job in 2007 and took it (title) from us"

"I have a good relationship with him, and I'm sure he would say the same."

"On behalf of all at Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, I'd like to offer congratulations to Kimi Raikkonen for this victory."

"Kimi is a fantastic driver, and I like him and know him well. He was with the team for five years. He is quick, he is committed and I think he probably would be very committed to beating Ferrari in the future - knowing him. All these are attractive things with Kimi. He is not political. He is absolutely straightforward - what you see is what you get with Kimi. And on top of that everyone knows that he is a winning driver. I think he has been underestimated technically. He is a very good racing driver and I think he would fit well in this team, if we choose to go down that route."

It's seemingly only a matter of time, and has largely become and open secret.