Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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TeamKoolGreen
TeamKoolGreen
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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It is safe to assume that some of these ideas came from Rob Marshall's file back in his RedBull days. But they never had to reach like this because they were dominating anyway.

I find the cake tin layer idea a bit far fetched. The tin would be heavier and thicker. Maybe a film or a layer of some material could be in there but not a crevice for water. The rules around the drink system sound a bit vague. But that is just uncooled water.

I still think it is a system in the ducting that can switch back at forth between pathways.

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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AR3-GP wrote:
21 May 2025, 17:30
Then again peltier devices could be operated from a switch on the steering wheel...heating and cooling something on demand. I'm just not certain that there's much power density in peltier devices.
One would think that they've been around long enough that it would have been done in F1 before 2025

AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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What grounds would the FIA have to ban peltier materials (as they have heavily implied). That's why I don't think Mclaren are using any exotic materials at all. The FIA just tends to ban anything that's "too special". It's most likely just well thought out ducting.
It doesn't turn.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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A closer look at the brake duct layout from the video. Is anyone able to explain why the brake disc cover looks the way it does? It is unlike the other teams.

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Why does it look like this?

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It doesn't turn.

Farnborough
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Another, although tenuous, possibility in IR capability within photovoltaic capture. Export through electrical output to scavenge energy above torque limitations.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 094808.htm

FittingMechanics
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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TeamKoolGreen wrote:
21 May 2025, 18:37
AR3-GP wrote:
21 May 2025, 17:30
Then again peltier devices could be operated from a switch on the steering wheel...heating and cooling something on demand. I'm just not certain that there's much power density in peltier devices.
One would think that they've been around long enough that it would have been done in F1 before 2025
It's such an obvious thing to do so it has to be super impractical in reality (for use in brakes).

AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Image
It doesn't turn.

vorticism
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Looks like the edge of the collector transition. All the cars have essentially the same shape piece there: a shell around the brake disc that transitions into round duct which empties at the outflow "scoop".

AR3-GP wrote:
21 May 2025, 19:10
A closer look at the brake duct layout from the video. Is anyone able to explain why the brake disc cover looks the way it does? It is unlike the other teams.

https://i.postimg.cc/SNMRdfjt/image.png
It's a carbon fiber cage around what looks like a shell of formed mineral/ceramic fiber insulation. A cage and not a continuous shell of carbon because... either to simply lightweight it or speculatively allow some heat to dissipate through the insulation. If the latter then of what use would a small amount of thermal radiation allowed beyond the collector duct be? Prevent heat buildup under the CF shell to help it keep its shape, otherwise have to consider what use there is in heating the inner cake tin/drum. If the insulation can breath then you'd be dissipating a little less heat through the main disc outflow collector and a small amount through the collector insulation along with the drum cooling.

General arrangement on the current cars is: Disc collector<inner drum<outer drum with ducts feeding into and out of the first two layers.

Cs98
Cs98
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Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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vorticism wrote:
21 May 2025, 23:51
Looks like the edge of the collector transition. All the cars have essentially the same shape piece there: a shell around the brake disc that transitions into round duct which empties at the outflow "scoop".

AR3-GP wrote:
21 May 2025, 19:10
A closer look at the brake duct layout from the video. Is anyone able to explain why the brake disc cover looks the way it does? It is unlike the other teams.

https://i.postimg.cc/SNMRdfjt/image.png
It's a carbon fiber cage around what looks like a shell of formed mineral/ceramic fiber insulation. A cage and not a continuous shell of carbon because... either to simply lightweight it or speculatively allow some heat to dissipate through the insulation. If the latter then of what use would a small amount of thermal radiation allowed beyond the collector duct be? Prevent heat buildup under the CF shell to help it keep its shape, otherwise have to consider what use there is in heating the inner cake tin/drum. If the insulation can breath then you'd be dissipating a little less heat through the main disc outflow collector and a small amount through the collector insulation along with the drum cooling.

General arrangement on the current cars is: Disc collector<inner drum<outer drum with ducts feeding into and out of the first two layers.
Maybe it’s the opposite idea, maybe the insulation is better at keeping the heat inside the brake disc shell than just having a CF shell.

vorticism
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Cs98 wrote:
22 May 2025, 10:33
Maybe it’s the opposite idea, maybe the insulation is better at keeping the heat inside the brake disc shell than just having a CF shell.
True, but all the teams should be using some form of insulation within the disc outflow collector. The unique windows in the Mclaren collector are probably for making that part lighter and/or heat dissipation.
Last edited by vorticism on 29 May 2025, 19:38, edited 1 time in total.

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ringo
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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The bump may just be there because a sensor is underneath, or simply a latch that fastens the cover.
The paper filter looking segments look like they just allow windage to diffuse outward from the rotating disc rotor.
If it were a closed cover, there would be windage losses, and possible brake dust build up from the pads, which could cause brake fire.
The part of the pictures that catches my eye is where the wheel rim sits on the hub. There is a carbon looking surface, and behind that a slotted cylinder, which as i mentioned before one of the ducts is blowing air on where the disc rotor is splined to the wheel hub. The slots reduce the surface area of the structure connecting the rim and the rotor, to reduce heat transfer, and they also provide a pathway for cooling air to blow through the hub, wheel and rotor interface, keeping things cool.
This design is probably perfected by analyzing wheel speed (how fast the rotor is spinning) and air mass flow coming in at that ground speed and sizing the surface areas accordingly.
Red bull has very good tyre management in Imola, so they themselves know there is no thermal magic going on for McLaren. No fancy phase change or liquid transfer devices. Just plain old special focus and R&D.
I am also not discounting the size of the rear rotor being oversized, that runs cooler and has more stable temperature change than a comparatively smaller brake rotor.
For Sure!!

AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Interesting animation.

It doesn't turn.

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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vorticism wrote:
21 May 2025, 23:51
All the cars have essentially the same shape piece there: a shell around the brake disc that transitions into round duct which empties at the outflow "scoop".
Judging by the pictures, no other cars have the rotor wrapped with fiber with so little tolerance to spare

vorticism
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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TeamKoolGreen wrote:
23 May 2025, 04:30
Judging by the pictures, no other cars have the rotor wrapped with fiber with so little tolerance to spare
Hard to say what the gap to the brake rotor is for any of them, without knowing the thickness of insulation each one is using.

Speaking of insulation it looks like the Merc disc outflow collector does not even have any (photo below), compared to MCL and RB which both appear to. There are some interesting details in the Merc duct assembly; based on existing photos my initial speculation is they might be mixing cooling air inside the collector to manage temperatures within it; adding ambient air to the hot outflow of the brake disc. If so that would eliminate the need for insulation. In terms of mass, we might be seeing here the choice between the weight of an additional duct, and the weight of insulation.

Lasssept wrote:
29 May 2025, 12:00
Spain
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@SalaStampRacing