2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[radosav]

That article is not in English, but I guess that Honda is 100 hp down when detuned.

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

I read somewhere that the gap was around 30-40HP, not being detuned.

Alonso said it was detuned, so i hope that is true.

[Phil]

I am going to assume that Honda didn't actually build an engine that is weaker than last years. If this was the case, they would have already seen this on the dyno.

So I am wondering if the lack of power inside the car has to do with the packaging? Has McLaren gone too aggressive with the aero and the inlets? When the car was launched, people were already surprised at how small they all are.

DISCLAIMER: I am not proposing that it's a simple case of just enlarging them and all is well. I am however questioning the thought that Honda has in fact delivered an inferior engine than last year. This just wouldn't make sense. At the very least, they should have seen what is coming on the dyno. Listening to Wazari, I get that this new engine has a lot of potential, but perhaps there are other issues that are not directly related to just the engine, but could be about packaging as well?

[Manoah2u]

agreed on the latter - 100hp down detuned.
a good question however would be, just how much HP would Honda's engine have if it could operate on it's full potential?

this is just picking stuff out of thin air offcourse, but imagine if the Mercedes has 1000 HP,
and right now Honda is having 930 HP. that's 70 HP less, which no way can be corrected.
but then, if Honda would operate on 100% scale, that would mean they'd have 1030 HP > 30 HP more than Merc.

in other words, there might be potential and possibility, but it can't be extracted from it due to the existing problem.
again, this is just picking stuff out of thin air but i'm merely pointing out that things might seem bleak, but that it doesn't neccesarily mean it's a permafail.

would Honda be able to 'fix' the problem that causes them to detune the engine and not run on it's potential, then they might actually be a worthy opponent.

reality seems to be that this is not at all the case, and where's smoke, there's fire if you ask me. Mclaren-Honda surely is on a boiling point. Offcourse i'm the
first one to really be bummed about this in regards to Alonso, but let's not forget about his co-driver - despite i'm personally not that impressed at all by him -
VanDoorne.

If this is going nowhere this season than Vandoorne will participate in his first f1 season with a totally unreliable and uncompetitive car, and if things do go
south, and chances are they will, then the deal with Honda will vaporise and Mclaren will find itself not only needing to find another engine supplier, and thus
another 5-6 years far off any chance on the WDC and the WCC perhaps even a win or podium, but they'll also deal with a loss of those hundreds of millions that
Honda is slamming into the team, which would send them straight to the end of the midfield at best. And thus, in need of sponsors AND dare i say paydrivers?
It would be career destruction for Vandoorne as he's not the youngest around and he'll be hard or impossible to judge in his position at Mclaren at this point.

Let's hope things turn for the good for Mclaren and Honda. If not, it'll be another 5 years before Mclaren will get a chance at the top with presumably BMW,
which does sound like a interesting pairing.

What would happen to Honda? well, if i'm correct then Sauber is going to use Honda engines next year. If honda meanwhile actually manages to fix their engine
problems then there is always the possibility that either Williams would jump at the opportunity, or perhaps even RedBull would take them aboard, but i'm drifting
far off now.

either way, it's embarassing all of this. it really is.

[diffuser]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... l-children

But Hamilton is saying that you cant push all the laps because of the tyres. Quite contradictory, isn´t it? anyway I believe Alonso in this case, the downforce that those cars have plus the harder tyres must let the drivers push much more than in 2016,

I'm not a big Hamilton fan but you need to think with your head not your heart....
Ever think they're both right ? maybe if you running 3 seconds a lap faster the tires don't hold up as well ?

Plus Hamiton has done like 5000 laps on the new tires (if you include the tire tests) and Alonso 100 and yet you still lean towards Alonso's opinion ? No, you're not being bias at all.

[ClarkBT11]

I am going to assume that Honda didn't actually build an engine that is weaker than last years. If this was the case, they would have already seen this on the dyno.

So I am wondering if the lack of power inside the car has to do with the packaging? Has McLaren gone too aggressive with the aero and the inlets? When the car was launched, people were already surprised at how small they all are.

DISCLAIMER: I am not proposing that it's a simple case of just enlarging them and all is well. I am however questioning the thought that Honda has in fact delivered an inferior engine than last year. This just wouldn't make sense. At the very least, they should have seen what is coming on the dyno. Listening to Wazari, I get that this new engine has a lot of potential, but perhaps there are other issues that are not directly related to just the engine, but could be about packaging as well?

I've been thinking the same for a while. McLaren came up with the size zero concept probably thinking less drag and more efficient aero was the winning formula and just left Honda to deal with inadequate space for a decent package to match Ferrari and Mercedes. Apart from Redbull last year the other top two teams didn't mind more drag with a larger package but compensated it with more power.

[Alonso Fan]

I am going to assume that Honda didn't actually build an engine that is weaker than last years. If this was the case, they would have already seen this on the dyno.

So I am wondering if the lack of power inside the car has to do with the packaging? Has McLaren gone too aggressive with the aero and the inlets? When the car was launched, people were already surprised at how small they all are.

DISCLAIMER: I am not proposing that it's a simple case of just enlarging them and all is well. I am however questioning the thought that Honda has in fact delivered an inferior engine than last year. This just wouldn't make sense. At the very least, they should have seen what is coming on the dyno. Listening to Wazari, I get that this new engine has a lot of potential, but perhaps there are other issues that are not directly related to just the engine, but could be about packaging as well?

I've been thinking the same for a while. McLaren came up with the size zero concept probably thinking less drag and more efficient aero was the winning formula and just left Honda to deal with inadequate space for a decent package to match Ferrari and Mercedes. Apart from Redbull last year the other top two teams didn't mind more drag with a larger package but compensated it with more power.

And we go round in circles again and again and again

[ClarkBT11]

Sorry if I wouldn't of replied if I knew it had been discussed we are not worthy of your wisdom so if we're going round in circles what is the answer?

[PhillipM]

The answer is that Honda decided on size zero, not Mclaren, as has been confirmed by multiple statements from honda and many, many previous discussions.

[Alonso Fan]

Sorry if I wouldn't of replied if I knew it had been discussed we are not worthy of your wisdom so if we're going round in circles what is the answer?

It's already been discussed in depth to the letter, so much so that if anyone mentions it again things will be thrown

For the last time, McLaren never imposed size zero on Honda, there was no force. They simply came up with an idea and Honda agreed. If Honda hadn't agreed McLaren would have compromised. But Honda told McLaren they could do it. Honda realised that their concept was absolute cr*p too late and couldn't change anything

Edit: I'm not angry, nor stressed. No really.

Rant over

Apology accepted

[Phil]

Hum. "Size-Zero" in the sense that one is compromized for the other? It wouldnt make sense for Honda to impose that on themselves, as they arent the ones designing the car.

I'd expect that both McLaren and Honda sat together and discussed together what they wanted to achieve both in regards to aero and engine. I expect that Honda said what was within their competence to achieve with the limited space that was given.

If each had made decisions without the other (like the size zero concept) you could just as well be in a customer-team relationship, not a partnership.

[Vasconia]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... l-children

But Hamilton is saying that you cant push all the laps because of the tyres. Quite contradictory, isn´t it? anyway I believe Alonso in this case, the downforce that those cars have plus the harder tyres must let the drivers push much more than in 2016,

I'm not a big Hamilton fan but you need to think with your head not your heart....
Ever think they're both right ? maybe if you running 3 seconds a lap faster the tires don't hold up as well ?

Plus Hamiton has done like 5000 laps on the new tires (if you include the tire tests) and Alonso 100 and yet you still lean towards Alonso's opinion ? No, you're not being bias at all.

I am not an Alonso fan either so no, I was not underestimating Hamilton´s opinion. But the majority of drivers have stated that with those tyres and the new cars they can push much more so I found surprising Hamilton´s comment. Anywa,y as Andres125 has already mentioned, a full read to his comments shows that he has mentioned that the tyres are much bettter(to push), but nevertheless they have to take care of them (at times) in order to keep them "fresh".

[ClarkBT11]

Mods delte my profile can't be bothered wasting my life with petty people anymore just not enjoyable anymore I'm not part of the cult so if you step out of line be prepared to be attacked some people are just clearly better than others around here.

[Redragon]

Hum. "Size-Zero" in the sense that one is compromized for the other? It wouldnt make sense for Honda to impose that on themselves, as they arent the ones designing the car.

I'd expect that both McLaren and Honda sat together and discussed together what they wanted to achieve both in regards to aero and engine. I expect that Honda said what was within their competence to achieve with the limited space that was given.

If each had made decisions without the other (like the size zero concept) you could just as well be in a customer-team relationship, not a partnership.

I totally agree with you, both are responsable of the size zero and the situation they are right now. They took the risk and it didn't work out, now they are starting with a new engine design close to the lay out of Mercedes that it was what they could have been working back in 2015. So hopefully, they start not to blame each other and work as group forward.

[RS200E]

Going back to the 2016 engine is almost as ridiculous as swapping to a Mercedes engine.

Also the blame game is beyond tiresome. Shame on whomever brings that back up and also the above posts that 'both are equally responsible'. Accept the evidence and don't try to sneak in your opinion.

Probably better typing your post, leave it for at least 10 minutes, think about it and then decide to post it or not.

[Redragon]

Going back to the 2016 engine is almost as ridiculous as swapping to a Mercedes engine.

Also the blame game is beyond tiresome. Shame on whomever brings that back up and also the above posts that 'both are equally responsible'. Accept the evidence and don't try to sneak in your opinion.

Probably better typing your post, leave it for at least 10 minutes, think about it and then decide to post it or not.

I think you should apply yourself those 10 minutes. Also I can't have an opinion? Today Bollier is recognizing is not only Honda problems the chasis is too heavy and other problems from the Mclaren side http://motor.as.com/motor/2017/03/14/fo ... 73547.html