What are the odds of Alonso losing it?

[LionKing]

So Webber forgetting how to get a Formula 1 car off the starting line for an entire season shows they have equal equipment? Please. Vettel is in the exact situation that Schumacher and Alonso before him were/are in. He's the number one driver, and if you think otherwise you're delusional. RBR don't care if they both finish at the top, but they do care that Vettel maintains his lead. I can't think of a single example where Vettel was told to stay behind Webber once. Also, the Renault was far from the dominant car when Alonso won his WDC, he was pushed the whole way, or the POS McLaren Kimi drove blew up. Don't forget that the TMD Renault had inside the car was ruled an aerodynamic device. Something that gave them an incredibly clever advantage was taken away from them through political means.

Who the hell said anything about a conspiracy? Vettel is a midpack driver when his RBR isn't dominant. That's stone cold fact. He cannot and does not drive a car outside it's limits and finish ahead of where it should be. Alonso, Kimi and Lewis are the only current drivers that can and do. Whenever the RBR isn't the class of the field, Vettel is in the midpack looking as ordinary as he is. The only reason people like you think he's so fantastic is because when you have a car that has been as utterly dominant as his, there's no pressure for mistakes to come out. Simple fact is that you see Vettel winning in an utterly dominant car and you think he's the best. When he's on the backfoot, he's no where.

Vettel a midpack driver? It think you are clueless about F1.

Vettel is a very good racer. Just look at his race finishes this year. He has 3 wins, 2 seconds, 1 third, 3 fourths, 2 fifths, 1 sixth and 3 non points finishes ( 2DNF and Karthikeyan incident). He was leading in one DNF, destined for 4th in the other. He was also in 4th place when Karthikeyan shredded his rear tire. Always top 6 or better performance. By comparison Hamilton has 3 eighth places this year...

Also in Torro Rosso he got 35 of the team 39 points.

Nobody drives a car outside its limits.

and Kimi really??? The guy who was beaten by Massa over 2.5 years in points, in race wins, in qualifying and in poles? The same one who is being dominated again in qualy by his teammate this year.

[Cylinder]

Schumacher? You're not serious are you? He never had a teammate that was treated equally, least of all in Ferrari. Comparing Alonso to Schumacher in terms of teammate strength, or even Vettel alongside Webber, is the most delusional thing I've ever heard.

As a Tifosi, please let me say this.

Michael Schumacher in his prime had no equal on the race track, no one could touch him, equal machinery or not, especially over a full season and I love Fernando Alonso to bits, but never once EVER have I considered him to be better than schumacher. was it Hungary 98 when Brawn gets on the radio to schumacher and says something like "we need a 20 second cushion in 15 laps michael" and then he responds "ok thanks" before going ouit and rattling off about 15 quali laps and making the gap happen......sorry, Michael was different level, alot of people are trying to re-write history about schumacher, but it's total B.S. That man could have jumped in a Mclaren and won even more titles, the video of ron dennis begging him to sign are on youtube, but michael didnt take the easy way out, it took him 5 years to take ferrari to the top, he earned everything he got.

[Ray]

Vettel a midpack driver? It think you are clueless about F1.

I meant that if that's as fast as the car will go, that's how fast Vettel can drive it. He is increibly fast, but unless he's in the absolute best car he's never going to be challenging for positions the car isn't strictly capable of.

Vettel is a very good racer. Just look at his race finishes this year. He has 3 wins, 2 seconds, 1 third, 3 fourths, 2 fifths, 1 sixth and 3 non points finishes ( 2DNF and Karthikeyan incident). He was leading in one DNF, destined for 4th in the other. He was also in 4th place when Karthikeyan shredded his rear tire. Always top 6 or better performance. By comparison Hamilton has 3 eighth places this year...

I think he is a good racer, when he has the best car. I like Vettel, I really do. I just don't think his greatness extends to being able to drive a car competitively that isn't the outright best. Fighting amongst the other fast teams is pretty much what he's supposed to do. Not really that noteworthy.

Also in Torro Rosso he got 35 of the team 39 points.

Against Scott Speed and Bourdais, I would hope he scored more points than them. That's not really a feather in his cap.

Nobody drives a car outside its limits.

So despite former drivers speaking of current drivers hoisting a car up further up the grid than it should be is completely false? I think they would know more about driver abilities than you or me. I'll take their word for it.

and Kimi really??? The guy who was beaten by Massa over 2.5 years in points, in race wins, in qualifying and in poles? The same one who is being dominated again in qualy by his teammate this year.

Kimi's heart wasn't in it. He looked about average against Massa, but Massa isn't all that great when things aren't going his way either. You seem to forget that Massa doesn't have a WDC to his name. Kimi won what, five of the last six races in '07? He lost two WDC from the POS McLaren kept giving him in '05 and '06. Yeah, Massa is so great that he hasn't scored a podium, save for this race, in two years. He's had his ass completely handed to him by Alonso, and he will be the final cause for losing them the WCC this year. I know he was hurt, and I don't treat that lightly. Massa is not a benchmark I'd use, when the Ferrari is bad, Massa is worse.

Comparing Kimi to Grojean is laughable. Qualy pace doesn't mean squat on raceday, and Grosjean was sat down for a race. If you mean to compare the carnage and stupidity that Grosjean has caused and suffered, Kimi can't touch him. Don't forget that Kimi has hit quite a few trees in the last two years driving cars that were nothing like the F1 cars of his days past. Grosjean has more experience with the newer generation of cars and if you think that Kimi is doing a bad job, I'd hate to see what you think doing a good job for him would be.

[Ray]

As a Tifosi, please let me say this.

Your opinion is tainted.

Michael Schumacher in his prime had no equal on the race track, no one could touch him, equal machinery or not, especially over a full season and I love Fernando Alonso to bits, but never once EVER have I considered him to be better than schumacher. was it Hungary 98 when Brawn gets on the radio to schumacher and says something like "we need a 20 second cushion in 15 laps michael" and then he responds "ok thanks" before going ouit and rattling off about 15 quali laps and making the gap happen......sorry, Michael was different level, alot of people are trying to re-write history about schumacher, but it's total B.S. That man could have jumped in a Mclaren and won even more titles, the video of ron dennis begging him to sign are on youtube, but michael didnt take the easy way out, it took him 5 years to take ferrari to the top, he earned everything he got.

Michael brought a lot to the table in terms of fitness and focus, but his success was largely in part to the car he had, and the fact that Bridgestone made tires for the Ferrari, tossing the leftovers to everyone else. He's been exposed multiple times as a dirty cheat. Least of which on his list was to never have a teammate that would ever have anything like the support he was given. You're glossing over a lot of facts to say that no one could touch him. No one was allowed to. When guys like Alonso and Kimi got tires that were equal/better than the custom designed Bridgestones the were right there on his ass. He's an amazing talent, but when you have the sole tire supplier building their tires specifically for you, and your contract states that no one in the team works for anyone buy you, yeah, you're gonna be amazing. I don't deny that he is probably the best of his generation.

[LionKing]

and Kimi really??? The guy who was beaten by Massa over 2.5 years in points, in race wins, in qualifying and in poles? The same one who is being dominated again in qualy by his teammate this year.

Kimi's heart wasn't in it. He looked about average against Massa, but Massa isn't all that great when things aren't going his way either. You seem to forget that Massa doesn't have a WDC to his name. Kimi won what, five of the last six races in '07?

No, he didn't win 5 out of 6 or similar.. More like Kimi got his only WDC by McLaren self destructing in 2007.

He lost two WDC from the POS McLaren kept giving him in '05 and '06.

Drivers don't "lose WDCs" because they are not given a competitive car. Schumacher did not lose 3 more WDCs in 2010-2012 because of Mercedes, He just wasn't in the fight. You can't just assume loss of WDC as easily as that. Secondly even with a top car in 2008, Kimi wasn't in the fight when his teammate went to the wire.

In 2005 Kimi had the faster but not reliable car compared to Alonso and he didn't win.

Yeah, Massa is so great that he hasn't scored a podium, save for this race, in two years. He's had his ass completely handed to him by Alonso, and he will be the final cause for losing them the WCC this year. I know he was hurt, and I don't treat that lightly. Massa is not a benchmark I'd use, when the Ferrari is bad, Massa is worse.

Nobody is claiming Massa is great. But that is exactly the point. Kimi was beaten by a driver who isn't even himself a top notch driver by any stretch.

You are including driver who has been slower than his last two teammates amongst the so called "outperforming the car kind of driver" and at the same time calling another who has achieved much more than Kimi in F1 in less time as a midpack driver...

and Vettel can drive brilliantly in rain. Can you say the same thing about Kimi I don't think so...

[LionKing]

As a Tifosi, please let me say this.

Your opinion is tainted.

Michael Schumacher in his prime had no equal on the race track, no one could touch him, equal machinery or not, especially over a full season and I love Fernando Alonso to bits, but never once EVER have I considered him to be better than schumacher. was it Hungary 98 when Brawn gets on the radio to schumacher and says something like "we need a 20 second cushion in 15 laps michael" and then he responds "ok thanks" before going ouit and rattling off about 15 quali laps and making the gap happen......sorry, Michael was different level, alot of people are trying to re-write history about schumacher, but it's total B.S. That man could have jumped in a Mclaren and won even more titles, the video of ron dennis begging him to sign are on youtube, but michael didnt take the easy way out, it took him 5 years to take ferrari to the top, he earned everything he got.

Michael brought a lot to the table in terms of fitness and focus, but his success was largely in part to the car he had, and the fact that Bridgestone made tires for the Ferrari, tossing the leftovers to everyone else. He's been exposed multiple times as a dirty cheat. Least of which on his list was to never have a teammate that would ever have anything like the support he was given. You're glossing over a lot of facts to say that no one could touch him. No one was allowed to. When guys like Alonso and Kimi got tires that were equal/better than the custom designed Bridgestones the were right there on his ass. He's an amazing talent, but when you have the sole tire supplier building their tires specifically for you, and your contract states that no one in the team works for anyone buy you, yeah, you're gonna be amazing. I don't deny that he is probably the best of his generation.

again more nonsense....

During Micheal's first 4 WDC, everyone were on the same tires. McLaren switched to better Brigdestones first before Ferrari did.

When others had a much better car, Micheal generally took it to the last race. When Micheal had the better car he dominated.

Micheal's teammates in Ferrari:
Barrichello outqualified Button over 4 years.
Massa beat Kimi over 2.5 years.
They were clearly as fast as any available out there.

In 3 of Micheal's 5 titles with Ferrari, Barrichelo wasn't even the runner up in WDC. So much for the car....

As for cheating, there are drivers in the current grid whose teammates crashed to hand them a win, or those who engage in F1 spy scandal, etc...

[Ray]

You act as if qualy is a metric that matters. That alone makes your arguments specious at best. Last time I checked, there are no points given for qualy, and the record is only there for statistical reasons. No driver would rather out-qualify their teammate rather than win more races or championships. You need an argument that has relevance.

Kimi had 6 wins and 12 podiums in 2007.
Massa had 3 wins and 10 podiums in 2007.
That means that Massa definitely did not "beat" Kimi over two and a half years. He "beat" him once.
Rubens not finishing second in the WDC has absolutely nothing to do with Michael having a teammate that was strictly not allowed to equal, or better than him for any reason. You're using a strawman. Rubens' finishing place in the championship has absolutely nothing to do with Michael having explicit control over the entire team.

While accusations against Alonso blackmailing McLaren over the issue of team members stealing confidential information and passing it to another team in exchange for status in the team is deplorable, they were never proven. But I guess it's okay to cheat if other do it too huh? You also forget that Michael won the first by ramming his rival off track to prevent him from beating him, and then was disqualified from an entire championship points tally after trying it again. Who's speaking nonsense again? He wasn't the best in those two years, he was a cheater. And I have NO love for Villeneuve at all, but he didn't deserve to have Schumacher try and take him out because he couldn't stand to lose fair and square.

McLaren having switched before Ferrari has no relevance either, Bridgestone made tires specifically for Ferrari. Having the sole tire supplier give their time and effort to make products that work best with your car gives you an advantage the other can't match.

On topic, if Alonso loses this championship it'll be strictly because Massa failed miserably to be a competent driver for Ferrari. That's it. Given the dismal performance from him I'm betting Alonso will lose the championship because Massa has trouble making the top 10 consistently.

[aero expert 807]

This thread has really degraded.It should be locked if members don't stop this foolishness.

[WhiteBlue]

Lets try to get the thread back on topic. The bickering about long past events and "who is the greatest" does not serve any purpose. Reasonable people will agree that both Alonso and Vettel are superb drivers with lots of talent, dedication, focus and race craft. A WDC is not primarily won due to superiority of a driver. To even get into a top two or top three position you have to have a competitive car. Both our pretenders had such a car during different parts of the season. Fate has even dealt them the same number of DNFs. The broad consensus in the odds seems to indicate that Red Bull is currently ahead in the development and could potentially keep this advantage. Also compare Tomba's article about the Ferrari development problems. http://www.f1technical.net/development/378

But the nature of the sport is that anything can happen. In 2010 I was totally convinced that Vettel was capable of still winning the championship when he DNFed in Korea. I did not believe he would but I knew he would try. The Alonso fans must realize that their man is on the back foot at the moment but they will have the same confidence that he will never give up and give his best. It will make for a thrilling championship finish. We should call ourselves lucky that we are treated to such a thrilling prospect.

[Ray]

I think Alonso will lose this championship. Vettel and RedBull seem to have gotten their mojo back, and we know that Ferrari can't count on Massa to keep people away from Alonso for him to gain points on his closest competition. I really do think that Alonso's championship is now firmly in Massa's hands because no matter what Ferrari put on the car, having his rivals all over him will lose him the title. I hope he can eek out a WDC win, but I seriously doubt it.

[Nando]

I´m still going with Mclaren/Hamilton.
took 10 points from Alonso this race.

[Cylinder]

I´m still going with Mclaren/Hamilton.
took 10 points from Alonso this race.

I think its very possible Hamilton can still pull it off, more of a feeling than anything, however he almost seems to have accepted he cant win it, he looked a bit off this weekend, like he was looking forward to starting next season with Mercedes rather than going all out for this years WDC.

[beelsebob]

I´m still going with Mclaren/Hamilton.
took 10 points from Alonso this race.

Entirely valid – given that, he's on target to beat Alonso... But... It no longer looks like Alonso will be the top of the pile of non-Hamilton drivers. He's got to beat Vettel really. Vettel has a better car than Hamilton now, and a lead almost as big as Alonso's.

My money's on Vettel for this championship now unfortunately.

[Nando]

Vettel has a better car than Hamilton now

That we don´t know. He had a better car then Hamilton in Suzuka yes but if he will have a better car at Korea remains to be seen.

I think this race was more a fluke on Mclaren´s side rather then RBR having found a big chunk of pace.

[WhiteBlue]

I would love to see Hamilton closer but he will have to overcome very long odds as of today:
Sebastian Vettel 1.75
Fernando Alonso 2.78
Lewis Hamilton 23
The McLaren is closer to the Red Bull in performance but they have an awful lot of gearbox problems lately. That and the fact that Hamilton is 42 points behind Alonso. It is possible but Lewis will have to win races as Vettel did the last two.