Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[DiogoBrand]

Can you supply the naysayers with some information as to where they currently are in the development stage?

I'd like to know that as well.
It would be really impressive that two weeks after announcing their new parnership they already have a project for a car faster than Formula 1 well into development.

I'm not sure this forum is the appropriate place to educate people how press releases work.

Id like to bring your knowledge forward, all I can say is learn about press releases. That goes for so many people in this forum, a lot of really smart people here still think that when something is announced that's when it starts. Never in the history of business partnerships has the partnership started the day of the press announcement. More than likely this business partnership was inked last year when the rumors started and has been working behind a confidentiality and press embargo curtain for some time. That's how they pretty much always work - try to remember that moving forward in life. You'll start to appreciate the business side of this stuff a bit more with that knowledge.

To your point, Horner said the car is already producing more downforce than any F1 car red bull has produced in the simulator. On top of that, red bull has some of the best simulation experience in the world and the history of Motorsport simulation in general. They are basically the benchmark. If you can't believe what the benchmark is saying about what they know best then it might be more of a personal issue. I have a feeling most naysayers just don't like red bull. I'm confident if Ferrari or Mac announced this project we'd have a completely different tune.

Oh, so now I'm questioning this project because I don't like Red Bull? Come on man. If anyone is saying something because they like or dislike a company, it's most likely you defending it because you're so much in love with Newey.
I don't know if you have any work with engineering or not, but I'm thinking if you did, you'd try to base your assumptions and beliefs in facts and data, not on your fanboyism in Red Bull and Newey.
And just to clear it out even though I find it unnecessary: I don't have anything against Red Bull, if I could choose any team to win the race tomorrow it would be 10 times Red Bull over Mercedes or Ferrari.

[SR71]

The car is supposed to be ready for 2018. Given that its their first mid engined car I'd guess that they be looking at a development time of around 3 years. So at a guess I'd say they are probably already a year into the development and would probably be well into the design of the first architectural mules by now.

I'd say that the tie up with Red Bull is evidence that it has only just started development.

Reichman(AM) and Newey(RB) are co-developing this, and Newey was hands full up until January with the RB12.
I'd even suggest the pair may not even have met up until that point either.

To my mind, this "car" is very much on the drawing board.

How is that evidence?

[SR71]

I'd like to know that as well.
It would be really impressive that two weeks after announcing their new parnership they already have a project for a car faster than Formula 1 well into development.

I'm not sure this forum is the appropriate place to educate people how press releases work.

Id like to bring your knowledge forward, all I can say is learn about press releases. That goes for so many people in this forum, a lot of really smart people here still think that when something is announced that's when it starts. Never in the history of business partnerships has the partnership started the day of the press announcement. More than likely this business partnership was inked last year when the rumors started and has been working behind a confidentiality and press embargo curtain for some time. That's how they pretty much always work - try to remember that moving forward in life. You'll start to appreciate the business side of this stuff a bit more with that knowledge.

To your point, Horner said the car is already producing more downforce than any F1 car red bull has produced in the simulator. On top of that, red bull has some of the best simulation experience in the world and the history of Motorsport simulation in general. They are basically the benchmark. If you can't believe what the benchmark is saying about what they know best then it might be more of a personal issue. I have a feeling most naysayers just don't like red bull. I'm confident if Ferrari or Mac announced this project we'd have a completely different tune.

Oh, so now I'm questioning this project because I don't like Red Bull? Come on man. If anyone is saying something because they like or dislike a company, it's most likely you defending it because you're so much in love with Newey.
I don't know if you have any work with engineering or not, but I'm thinking if you did, you'd try to base your assumptions and beliefs in facts and data, not on your fanboyism in Red Bull and Newey.
And just to clear it out even though I find it unnecessary: I don't have anything against Red Bull, if I could choose any team to win the race tomorrow it would be 10 times Red Bull over Mercedes or Ferrari.

I never said you. Don't take it so personal.

[Edis]

The other problem is that a road car needs to produce MORE downforce than an F1 car to equal it's cornering performance because:

1. It weighs more
2. It's tyres have a lower coefficient of friction

A 700kg F1 car needs 2100kgf of cornering force to make 3G. A 1500kg road car needs 4500kgf. Essentially you need a downforce to weight ratio of at least 1.5 at cornering speeds. The mythical McLaren F1 has a downforce to weight ratio of around 0.4... So they need to be at least three times better than that.

I did a calc earlier today that a 1000kg car needs a Cz of around 8.0 to hit 3G. An F1 car has a Cz of around 2.0-3.0.

A fan car would do the job but the problem is always going to be the tyres. Nothing exists even close to what is required.

A little over 20 or so years ago IMSA GTP cars used to race with over 3500 kgf downforce, with 750 kg cars. So finding tires that can handle the job isn't impossible. Also, using active aero you can probably reduce the maximum downforce leveles a bit since you typically don't take corners at top speed.

Dauer 962 LM have a curb weight of 1080 kg I believe, about 200 kg more than the racing car it was built from, adding a leather interior and some other things. If you're going to make a car that is capable of doing F1 level lap times you need to make it lightweight, below 1000 kg shouldn't be unrealistic. Some sort of active suspension system is probably also needed as the ground clearence required to achieve the neccessary downforce levels on the track would make it undriveable on the roads.

The powertrain should probably be racing derived rather than production based. Why not revive Aston Martin Racings R17 engine for this purpose? The two liter, inline 6, R17 was designed in-house at Prodrive in five months for Aston Martins Le Mans program, but suffered from a failed water pump drive in it's only Le Mans attempt. Still, this 85 kg engine could be used for a low volume production car; perhaps with a longer stroke for increased capacity, and increased boost, or made into a V12 engine (as the engine block was machined from solid, it should offer some flexibility).

Foxhound, read Koenigsegg's web site. They actually state that they use external suppliers for various things. But again, they are building extremely limited numbers of bespoke, hand built cars that cost a million, literally. Likewise Pagani. If they tried to build 5000 cars a year selling at 50-70 grand then they would struggle too because the numbers would require using external suppliers of items such as gearboxes. BMW do it and they're a very big player.

I still think AM have got in to bed with the devil. RedBull will take any credit for themselves and lavish any blame on AM. Look at the recent relationship with Renault.

All car manufacturers use external suppliers, infact most of the parts in a car is made by an external supplier in some form. In some cases the car manufacturer buys an already finished part from the supplier, in other cases a suppliers standard part is adapted to the needs of the manufacturer. Parts can also be specially made for the manufacturer with varying degrees of involvement by the manufacturer. In some cases a supplier will set up a factory just for supplying one car manufacturer.

Bosch, Mahle, KSPG Automotive, Autoliv, Hella, ZF, Alcoa, Lear Corporation, Siemens, Magna, Continental, Valeo, Borg Warner, GKN Driveline, SKF, Saint-Gobain and Panasonic are just a few examples of suppliers that supply the automotive sector with everything from pistons, oil pumps, head lights, windshields, seats, brakes, alternators, wheel bearings, airbags, transmissions, hybrid batteries to complete chassis.

To make everything yourself simply isn't cost effective.

The italian gearbox manufacturer CIMA supplies the gearbox to Koenigsegg by the way, or at least they did.

But my inference was regarding their mainstay models. 488, California etc...not the halo car.

The chassis for their mainstream models are made by Alcoa

all the cars that you referred are not really road legal
they do not comply a whole bunch of EC and most of all US safety rules
they can be made road legal only in some countries like UK and then imported in other ones...
they are small craft factories.
That's not what a joint venture red-bull aston martin wants to be...

Legal in the UK means legal in all other EU countries.

[SR71]

To your point, Horner said the car is already producing more downforce than any F1 car red bull has produced in the simulator.

Horner, that great bastion of truth.

But he maybe right, only it ain't that hard to create more downforce.
Want a case in point?


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... dec511.jpg

Cool picture. Considering you're anti-Wright brothers I thought wings would be something you stay away from

[FoxHound]

By drawing board you mean advanced CAD packages with teams of engineers working on protobuilds and simulation teams already running bodywork downforce?

Then yes, I agree, this project is on the drawing board. could you show me a hyper car or even F1 car that didn't start this way (Contemprary cars of course).

You will be dissapointed to learn then that Newey pens on paper.. even his F1 cars. They then get fed into a simulator...and back to the drawing board and so on and so forth until finer scale details are ironed out on the sim.




He is not known as the last dinosaur of the pitlane for no reason...

The transfer of Newey’s freehand sketches to modern design tools is a time consuming process but one that is a necessity for Newey, as his pencil and notepad rarely leave his side.

“I think generally it’s just important having your eyes open. The brain’s a strange organ. You see something and think its interesting and then there will be a problem and you will flick away through your sub-conscious for an hour, a day, a week and then an idea will pop up and you go from there.”
“I am always fearful that my memory isn’t very good. In fact I know it’s not very good! So I’ll usually make a note of a design on a stickit, or I’ll just draw it there and then. Very often I work on a 24-hour rule. If I still think it is a good idea after 24 hours I will take it further, if not I’ll screw it up and throw it in the bin.”

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2012/10/adrian ... nd-pencil/

[SR71]

By drawing board you mean advanced CAD packages with teams of engineers working on protobuilds and simulation teams already running bodywork downforce?

Then yes, I agree, this project is on the drawing board. could you show me a hyper car or even F1 car that didn't start this way (Contemprary cars of course).

You will be dissapointed to learn then that Newey pens on paper.. even his F1 cars. They then get fed into a simulator...and back to the drawing board and so on and so forth until finer scale details are ironed out on the sim.
https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-im ... ey-007.jpg
https://autosport.com.ru/files/news/201 ... 125824.jpg
http://www.grandprixhistory.org/images/newey4.jpg

He is not known as the last dinosaur of the pitlane for no reason...

The transfer of Newey’s freehand sketches to modern design tools is a time consuming process but one that is a necessity for Newey, as his pencil and notepad rarely leave his side.

“I think generally it’s just important having your eyes open. The brain’s a strange organ. You see something and think its interesting and then there will be a problem and you will flick away through your sub-conscious for an hour, a day, a week and then an idea will pop up and you go from there.”
“I am always fearful that my memory isn’t very good. In fact I know it’s not very good! So I’ll usually make a note of a design on a stickit, or I’ll just draw it there and then. Very often I work on a 24-hour rule. If I still think it is a good idea after 24 hours I will take it further, if not I’ll screw it up and throw it in the bin.”

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2012/10/adrian ... nd-pencil/

I'm well aware of neweys process. You should become well aware yourself.

All of my original statement stands.m, but this is true, he does draw. LEGEND!

Edit: also, given the images shown in the press release and the fact they've run simulations. It looks like the project in some form or another had already left the drawing table.

Using your source as the evidence. Thanks.

[FoxHound]

I'm guessing you missed the time consuming bit....

Or that Newey probably had a crystal ball and knew Aston Martin would come calling. Hence he would have full scale mock up ready for sim tests and a mule being built as we speak.

So not only are you suggesting they can build this dream machine, hitting all it's design targets, within an economic remit suitable to the ailing Aston Martin, but also that Newey can overcome the laws of Physics and development procedure to already have a mule knocking about in a corner somewhere.

SR71, you have provided no evidence to suggest they are in advanced development stages.
You also should know...the project was only announced 2 weeks ago!

[bdr529]

The car is supposed to be ready for 2018. Given that its their first mid engined car I'd guess that they be looking at a development time of around 3 years. So at a guess I'd say they are probably already a year into the development and would probably be well into the design of the first architectural mules by now.

I remember reading something about a collaboration between the two last summer (besides the F1 engine link),
I guess this is the "car" that Horner was talking about.

[SR71]

I'm guessing you missed the time consuming bit....

Or that Newey probably had a crystal ball and knew Aston Martin would come calling. Hence he would have full scale mock up ready for sim tests and a mule being built as we speak.

So not only are you suggesting they can build this dream machine, hitting all it's design targets, within an economic remit suitable to the ailing Aston Martin, but also that Newey can overcome the laws of Physics and development procedure to already have a mule knocking about in a corner somewhere.

SR71, you have provided no evidence to suggest they are in advanced development stages.
You also should know...the project was only announced 2 weeks ago!

Foxhound - do you understand how press releases work? Confirm or deny.

Also, many links already posted in this thread lead you to the Cristian Horner quote about the car existing in simulation already.

By the mere fact you don't know this, one can only infer you have a very bad or selective memory, or you're not reading even the basic articles covering this topic, therefore your ability to contribute to the discussion remains null.

Cheers.

[SR71]

The car is supposed to be ready for 2018. Given that its their first mid engined car I'd guess that they be looking at a development time of around 3 years. So at a guess I'd say they are probably already a year into the development and would probably be well into the design of the first architectural mules by now.

I remember reading something about a collaboration between the two last summer (besides the F1 engine link),
I guess this is the "car" that Horner was talking about.

Yep. Wasn't this around the time Horner said Ron wouldn't be very happy?

[SR71]

Things we know:

-Program is funded
-some phase of development is already in CFD simulation

This evidence suggests that at some point newey has already worked on it. Now, since none of us are neweys personal assistant and have knowledge of his schedule, we should defer to the evidence we have that he has already contributed.

It also could be a project Aston had started already and newey will be providing input at the appropriate times.

Either choice is likely. For those commenting that this project is a non-starter you've already been proven wrong so please contribute to the discussion.

[SR71]

Just keeping tabs on this project and adding a bit more information.

Aston Martin now makes a road legal Vulcan.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/20/11464 ... n-requests

The Vulcan currently holds the lap record at Nardo, 2min 07sec lap time, which Aston says is nine seconds faster than a McLaren P1 road car.

Aston road cars faster than Mclaren P1, check...

[motobaleno]

Just keeping tabs on this project and adding a bit more information.

Aston Martin now makes a road legal Vulcan.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/20/11464 ... n-requests

The Vulcan currently holds the lap record at Nardo, 2min 07sec lap time, which Aston says is nine seconds faster than a McLaren P1 road car.

Aston road cars faster than Mclaren P1, check...

If you read the article you will easily understand that the road legal version of the vulcan will be much slower than the original one.

EDIT actually didn't find any time for the vulcan (even the original one) on fastestlap.com

[motobaleno]

well I don't know if it's fast,
for sure it's not so pretty...
that rear wing is just a little bit disharmonious

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/list/12 ... n-vulcan#1