2025 United States Grand Prix - COTA, Oct 17 - 19

[Watto]

If Norris needed 50 laps to see off Leclerc in a much slower Ferrari, how was he going to beat Max with a much smaller pace differential? Any thought to that?

Well, I think in the same way. In the end Lando had 1.6sec pace advantage over Lec when he overtook him. That is massive, that is not normal...Lando needs to fix his overtaking.
But judging pace: I do not think Verstappen had much left in the end, he usually would neither let the gap go down, nor not make a fastest lap attempt. That was very marginal and he was sliding around passing the backmarkers. With Lando on his tail in the first stint he may be either forced to stop even earlier, maybe even completely into nothing with a forced stop to Hard tires, or simply undercut. In the end it would have been the same point with a massive pace advantage.
I think Leclerc saved Ver the win. Lando could overtake one car, but not both.

Lando was catching Verstappen after the cleared Leclerc in the first stint. This was on same tires (mediums) that were damaged by driving in dirty air of Leclerc for many laps and by several attacks. The gap was coming down and then Norris made a mistake (lockup) after which he immediately went to pits. Nothing shows Verstappen had much pace in the bank at that moment.

Then after the pitstops, Lando is out on used softs and Max has new softs. Once again Norris has to fight through Leclerc but after he goes through can match Max pace.

Nothing is obviously guaranteed. It is quite possible Norris wouldn't be able to overtake Max as Max can defend very well and was in a faster car than Leclerc. But the fact is that Leclerc being ahead of Norris made that gap seem larger and that we were did not get an opportunity to see them fight for the win.

The gap when Charles pitted (L23) was 10.9s it hovered around the 11s mark till L27, lap 32 it was at 9.7s so was closing but around 1.2-1.3s in 5 laps when he was gaining when Max really had no need to push like Lando did I am not sure he really had much more to give.


Max didn't have new softs though. They were no doubt newer and he didn't get his quali lap in time on the last 2 so probably had them miss out on being pushed too hard and only 2 'slowish laps

I think its probably too hard to tell what would have happened if Lando was past Charles early Max was in conservation mode for most of it and didn't need to push.

I think he could have pushed Max to work not so sure he could have gotten past though

[FittingMechanics]

I've checked and you are right, it does seem their tires were of similar age. I do think I saw graphic during the race that showed they had 5-6 laps age difference between the softs? This is where I got that idea.

And I agree. Max did not really have to push but I also think that it didn't really look like he was holding back much pace. He was probably keeping some back in case of a safety car but it doesn't look like it is as much as he used to do.

Lando probably wouldn't be able to pass on track but maybe some kind of strategy could work (or backfire).

And this is all with no sprint running for McLaren. As a McLaren fan while the result was not ideal, I think this race showed the car still has plenty of pace and they should be able to seal the WDC.

[Watto]

Only 1 laps the difference Max's had 2 laps, Landos had 3.


But Max didn't do a quick lap with his so, maybe he didn't take too much life out of them pushing them too hard,

Max had an out lap and an in lap after he didn't make it to the line in time. Lando had an out laps, qualifying lap, and in lap.

[basti313]

And I agree. Max did not really have to push but I also think that it didn't really look like he was holding back much pace. He was probably keeping some back in case of a safety car but it doesn't look like it is as much as he used to do.

Yes, but the SC is the topic: He was at a SC safe 10sec gap in the second stint, means he could have done an additional stop without thinking about the cars behind at a SC. One does not let this gap slide down to 6sec without reason. He simply did not have the pace.

Lando probably wouldn't be able to pass on track but maybe some kind of strategy could work (or backfire).

Yes, no one can tell. But I think it is a fact, that there would have been a tango without Lec or an early pass on Lec. With being behind Max in the first stint an undercut would have worked for sure.

[Farnborough]

I think we are really seeing the culmination of Mclaren focusing hard on 2026 thinking they have everything in the bag this year, and Red Bull going all out for the WDC this year knowing next year will be a waste.

While I know what you're saying in regards to speculation of 26 PU .... why do they need an excuse to go for this title this year ?
They've shown on quite a few occasions that just a sniff of potential driver's championship and they're all in, no balance excuses necessary. They love the taste of that chase and competition, also being acutely good at bringing the necessary focus.

It seems the general rhetoric here plays out that they are indulgent in chasing development while neglecting the future. If 2021 taught us anything, its that this part of season commitment and chase did nothing to diminish their next years plans.

[Vettel165]

It could also be the case and a possibilty that the 2026 engine will be solid for Red Bull.

[Farnborough]

It could also be the case and a possibilty that the 2026 engine will solid for Red Bull.

There is that possibility

In reality, nobody has anything accurate (from the technical teams building them all) as to where the levels of each unit will arrive.

There's often given, through staid and formulaic reporting, that because MB got it right last time, then everyone else will be substandard this time. That maybe the case, but there's no empirical data, right now to show it.

Its the implied slight in that original phrase which I question (the one about 26 performance being lost/trashed) to make this years one that I question.
Statements are made without ANY knowledge as if it's a technical given in being correct .... when it's just pumping out repeat of journalists staid publishing.

[Trogg]

What a race by Leclerc.

[Wouter]

You can always tell Red Bull is good when even Yuki can score points. For him finishing 7 means the car is good.

.
Yuki was almost 60 sec slower than Max. The car is good?
Yuki gained 4 places at the start. Thats why he finished p7.

[venkyhere]

Honestly I think it's just McLaren being unlucky in couple of races. They didn't really fall off that much, it's just that circumstances played out in Verstappen favor.

This race for example had McLaren not run a single lap in the sprint, yet they still qualified P2. Then in the race worst thing happens, Leclerc slides into P2. Norris has to run in dirty air for 80% of the race with having to make two overtakes on Leclerc. Yet he still finishes just 7 seconds behind Verstappen. On a normal weekend Norris either challenges Verstappen most of the race or just wins.

If Norris needed 50 laps to see off Leclerc in a much slower Ferrari, how was he going to beat Max with a much smaller pace differential? Any thought to that?

+1
also Max was massaging his tyres through the sector1 snake, intentionally giving up time and trusting his superior sector3 to buy back the loss. He was conserving tyres (both sets), preparing for an attack from Norris, and was driving to a target time. It's often the case with the P1 guy who has a buffer behind him. Same was the case in Singapore, Russel was simply driving to a delta. The 7 seconds is not a meaningful time due to this, and also due to Max losing time lapping backmarkers.
Without an actual fight between them, it's difficult to judge what the 'true pace' difference was.


LeClerc deservedly the Driver of the Day. He not just 'defended' well, he kept his softs alive on heavy fuel load, whilst doing so - that's some amazing skill. I didn't expect him to hang on to P2 for 35-40 laps. I don't think anyone did.
Btw, why didn't LeClerc have to do much LiCo whilst Hamilton had to ? Hamilton did back-off the dirty air from LeClerc and Norris, didn't he ?

It always feels nice when one's 'crude evaluation' from watching the race is backed by data.

[basti313]

It always feels nice when one's 'crude evaluation' from watching the race is backed by data.

Do you know, if slower laptimes with battling were removed? It might push down Lec and Nor especially in the third sector. It looks a bit more like only in and outlaps were removed?

[AR3-GP]