[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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From what I understand it’s nearly impossible to do without some sort of ip sharing. I’m definitely extremely suspicious that this can be done just from photographs etc. Especially internal routings/flow/cooling/ducts etc. Anyway, it is what it is but this could be a death knell for the sport

the EDGE
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 18:28
From what I understand it’s nearly impossible to do without some sort of ip sharing. I’m definitely extremely suspicious that this can be done just from photographs etc. Especially internal routings/flow/cooling/ducts etc. Anyway, it is what it is but this could be a death knell for the sport
I have no issue with copied bodywork. Every team has been doing for years.

My issue is with the parts that teams are able to sell to others such as suspension parts. This should be abolished and replaced with an external supplier with one design available to all, if they choose not to make their own

Macklaren
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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CARLOS:

Great to feel these speeds again! Positive first Friday. We must keep an eye on yellow kerbs as the damaged wing cost me some time on S3, but we showed decent pace! Starting to see the pecking order, so bear with us as we prepare for tomorrow’s Qualy!

f1rules
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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and thats what i would like an answer to, come on, the paddock must know, is it posible? come forward engineers, and journalists go ahead and ask the right questions, what speaks for its legit, merc would never be so stupid to get themselves into trouble, what speaks against its legit, rp to incompetent to copy 1/1 and understand the complete concept...? I dont know, but it must bencomon knowledge in the paddock speak out!! If they are good i just hope they are real good beating albon and the ferraris so there will be more force behind the complaint, if its legit, hats of to stroll bringing in a complete new mindset making everyone else look incompetent
Fulcrum wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 18:21
Emag wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 17:42
To be honest I think its disgusting that someone can just copy last year's champion car and leapfrog the competition. Props to Mercedes for building such a beast of a car that can trump over most of the competition a year later (maybe even including Ferrari).

They are taking away prize money with a car that wasn't designed by them. They can say whatever bullshit excuse they have but the truth is that car is copied.

It's mostly a problem with the sport actually because the midfield has been so --- far behind compared to the front runners for so long. RP wouldn't have gotten away with a move like this back in 2010-2013 because usually the midfield were closing that 1 second gap with the previous year's car of the frontrunners.

I hope the new regulations fix this and don't allow for such unsporting strategies in the future.
Depends how it was "copied". If there has been sharing of intellectual property then teams might have reason to feel aggrieved.

If, as has been suggested, Racing Point reverse engineered the Mercedes aerodynamics via photogrammetry (or similar techniques), then the complaints are pure sour grapes. Its actually quite a feat, and it was not without significant risk.

And I doubt its a copy in the sense you are referring to. There will be minute differences specific to Racing Point's interpretation of the Mercedes solution, and the configuration of their internals (radiators, etc...).

Anyone can look at the Mona Lisa. Very few could repaint it.

Emag
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Fulcrum wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 18:21
Depends how it was "copied". If there has been sharing of intellectual property then teams might have reason to feel aggrieved.

If, as has been suggested, Racing Point reverse engineered the Mercedes aerodynamics via photogrammetry (or similar techniques), then the complaints are pure sour grapes. Its actually quite a feat, and it was not without significant risk.

And I doubt its a copy in the sense you are referring to. There will be minute differences specific to Racing Point's interpretation of the Mercedes solution, and the configuration of their internals (radiators, etc...).

Anyone can look at the Mona Lisa. Very few could repaint it.
Of course there are stuff that they had to do on their own. Even if they have a "secret collaboration" with Mercedes and they got classified information on the car (extremely unlikely), they would be foolish to completely copy everything as it would raise way too much suspicion (it already has as it is).

The thing is, the stuff they haven't copied are "uncopiable". Teams try to keep things like internal packaging and PU integration very secret since there might be a lot of time in the table in that area. Mercedes pretty much admitted that they took a lot of inspiration for (either 2018 or 2019) car from Ferrari after seeing them open up the sidepod on the grid trying to fix a problem in Raikkonen's car if I am not mistaken.

As for the risks involved, I would say the only risk here was them not getting something right because the concept was proven. And really, it isn't too impressive to copy a car outer's surface with the technology available today. I mean there are free software online that have been trained to extract a 3D model from a 2D picture. I would imagine that a Formula 1 team has much more resources available than that. Not to mention actual engineers who understand to some degree what they are looking at.

As soon as they got a somewhat accurate 3D model representation of the 2019 Mercedes, they could build a Wind Tunnel model and test if it was going to work right out of the box, or they had to actually had to work to make it competitive. At that point, they could have either been lucky, and the model proved successful right away, or if it didn't show the expected result, they decided to risk it and try to understand the concept better to make it work.

That's the only risky decision they could have taken. And it was optional to a certain extent because if the car didn't work as planned, they could have just gone back to their own concept and try to improve that instead (which is more work yeah, but that's what every other team did over the winter).

And now getting to your final point about Mona Lisa. If they had an aerodynamically promising model of the 2019 Mercedes, then they had to think about the compromises they had to make to the chassis to fit the engine. Why? Because there are no images available of how Mercedes has put everything together in their car so they had to come up with their own way. Plus there's also possible structural changes with the new iteration of the power unit (from 2019 to 2020)

And if you look to compare the 2019 Mercedes with the 2020 RP, the Front of the car is nearly identical. Very very minor differences in the flap configuration of the front wing, but that's probably some track specific stuff that RP has put together on their own. If you look at the rear of those cars though, it's a different story. They tried to copy the airbox configuration and they probably succeeded there to some extent, but they were unable to pack things as tightly as Mercedes and as a result the sidepod configuration is a little different.

But that's fine and you know why? Because they don't need the actual Mona Lisa. A good enough replica will be enough to get them through this season with an advantage in resources for the upcoming regulation changes.

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Marc.W
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Did anyone see that Racing Point were showing as only 16th fastest in the high speed?

Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Carlos:

“Racing Point were particularly quick today,” said Sainz. “We were expecting them to be quick, but in such a short circuit, to have the advantage they had against the rest of the midfield is particularly impressive. My opinion is that they are way too far away to try and mount a fight to them. But at least Renault, we look to be in the ballpark with them, so it’s going to be good fun still.”
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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jumpingfish
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Just look at Haas 2020, do you see them near top-3 with copy of SF90?

Emag
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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jumpingfish wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 20:05
Just look at Haas 2020, do you see them near top-3 with copy of SF90?
Nah, Haas is *similar to Ferrari in some areas. RP straight up copied Mercedes. It isn't the same.

Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Emag wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 20:06
jumpingfish wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 20:05
Just look at Haas 2020, do you see them near top-3 with copy of SF90?
Nah, Haas is *similar to Ferrari in some areas. RP straight up copied Mercedes. It isn't the same.
Marko says the RP is not a copy, he says it’s the original... :lol:
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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So big question. How faster RP seems to be compared to us? Is it just half a second as I have seen from the times or maybe more? The second question is how fast can we outdevelop RP, Renault and the other Midfield teams and do we have a chance to beat Ferrari or Red Bull this year cause they didn't seem to have done very well on Friday.

Now wait a minute here. I have checked both Practise 1 and Practise 2 and either Red Bull and Ferrari are sandbagging or Mclaren has finally matched them and only Mercedes is left on the front. What do you think?

Emag
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I think Mercedes and RedBull are in front. Ferrari is in trouble but they will be ahead of RacingPoint. And McLaren will have to fight for 5th with Renault unless they bring some huge upgrade this season.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I would say lets wait and see tomorrow. Mercedes is definately the best car so far but I would like to see tomorrow first for the rest.

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_cerber1
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I believe that this was a good day for the team, and we need to focus on our work, not paying attention to the rivals. We have a new car, without major updates, and it is fast from the very beginning, which is good for development.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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It is a strange year.