Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[McMrocks]

Hi guys,

does cylinder deactivation have any effect on the exhaust gases (amount or speed)? If yes could it explain the lack of energy recovered by the MGUH?

thanks in advance,

cheers

[dren]

BBC said the new PU that went into Alonso's car had a completely different exhaust note

Part of the update was a new exhaust, not sure if it means the log style is replaced with long lengths or not.

[Thunder]

I'm just going to qoute myself from the Team Thread :

Fernandos new Engine Sounds different. More like the Ferrari / Merc. The Tone is higher. The 'stuttering' under Acceleration is still there but it's less than before. You knew Button was on the Track even if he wasn't shown. At the beginning of FP1 when the Sky commentator said there was another Car on the Track i said "doesn't Sound like a Honda" and then the Camera switched to Show Fernando...

[PABLOEING]

Alonso very happy with new update in the Honda Engine .......

[NL_Fer]

No no haha. I doubt the ICE was down 150hp from other ICE. The engineers aren't that poor at Honda.
you are basically telling me that their ICE had 400hp.

They were 6s down on Hamilton in Australia, battling Manors in China. So yes they were 300hp down, but i believe still 550 vs 700 of Merc.

Now they are on par with Renault, but run out of ers power very early. I believe the others never really run out of ers, during a lap.

[NL_Fer]

Hi guys,

does cylinder deactivation have any effect on the exhaust gases (amount or speed)? If yes could it explain the lack of energy recovered by the MGUH?

thanks in advance,

cheers

A deactivated cilinder will be pumping air, so turbopressure is waisted. They air would cool the exhaust fumes or instead heat it,mif there would be unburnt fuel in the exhaust fumes, butt i seriously doubt it, since they are running very lean an low revs.

[mrluke]

No no haha. I doubt the ICE was down 150hp from other ICE. The engineers aren't that poor at Honda.
you are basically telling me that their ICE had 400hp.

They were 6s down on Hamilton in Australia, battling Manors in China. So yes they were 300hp down, but i believe still 550 vs 700 of Merc.

Now they are on par with Renault, but run out of ers power very early. I believe the others never really run out of ers, during a lap.

550 + 300 = 850 ???

I think the Honda PU actually uses power rather than makes it... jeez

[ESPImperium]

I did hear that the new update is worth 15-20hp for the ICE and aids the MGU-H efficiency aiding the cooling of the overall ERS package.

Hondas ICE would now, to my figures be 30-35hp up on the Renault, the ICE is immature so it is loosing the 160hp it develops. If the exhaust modifications work, this will help make this work better. Id recon the Honda in the 14 car will be better, however further development is needed. If my figures and sources are correct/accurate, the Honda is 30% smaller than the Mercedes.

The figures i have for ICE are:

Mercedes: 675-680hp
Ferrari: 670-675hp
Honda: 620-630hp
Renault: 595-605hp

With the ERS of the Honda being run at 30% efficiency at some tracks and others being run at the highest setting of 65%, that mean the Honda ERS is being run at as low as 48hp to 104hp, so the Honda is always at a deficit on overall power. When the other 3 ERS are working at 90-98% efficiency, the Honda guys are throwing away a minimum of 50hp, sometimes as much as 100hp, this shows the overall weakness of the engine. If the Honda had its extra 100hp, it would be up to 2 seconds a lap up the road going on the 0.4 of a second to 20hp marker that was banded about earlier in the season. Honda have separated out their Turbo issues to their Skunkworks devision, who seemingly have found the problem and have increased the size of it by 10% and sorted out the spindle and bearing issues they had pre season and early season.

Personally, i think the Honda 2016 power will be improved, but it all depends of weather or not the engine manufacturers can agree on how many Engine Tokens they can use in season next year, basically Mercedes needs to budge and allow Tokens to be used. Mercedes are pressing for all power units to be Homologated for the 1st Feb date for homologation. They are seemingly scared that Ferrari could use tokens to out develop them in season, and if Renault start the season with a strong unit and Total fuel, they could develop to their level in a year. Id say there will be in season development next year, but all will have 12 token to start the year and can spend 6 on two-3 token items and the rest on two and single token items.

We will know in Mexico if there is going to be In Season engine development next year.

[NL_Fer]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about power figures, efficiencies and what deployment means.

The Ice' are not that different from eachother, i think 650-700 bhp. Where Honda and Renault are on the low side, Mercedes and Ferrari on the too end.

Ers power is 160 bhp, fixed for all 4 pu's. Just the available seconds, that ers power is usable is different. For most tracks, about 60 seconds of ers power is needed. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault can deploy ers for the full 60s, just Honda cannot this year.

Remember those two cars overtaking Alonso with the gp2 engine, at that point ers was completly empty.

That is what Honda lacks, at the moment.

[Blackout]

Honda's ICE wasnt ahead of the Renault according to:

Arai has said he believes Honda's ICE is in the region of 20-25bhp more powerful than Renault's. Other engineers say that the two are very close, that Honda was perhaps marginally ahead before an upgrade in July moved Renault back in front by about 25bhp.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34208407

[DiogoBrand]

On that tweet from Albert Fabrega posted above he mentions the engine noise is different. Can someone confirm this?

[Cannonballer]

From F1i.com:

Speaking exclusively to F1i, Honda motorsport boss Yasuhisa Arai says the belief is the failings of this year’s power unit can be rectified without a complete overhaul of the layout.

“Looking at this year and next year, we’ve already gone in to a plan on how to make it better based on the current layout,” Arai said, speaking via a translator. “The final plan may come in winter but we are already on it.

“It will be the base we work from because it’s the layout we’ve worked on from scratch with McLaren. We think there’s the possibility there, that’s why we fixed on that layout. So there is more potential to be had.”
http://en.f1i.com/news/27804-honda-unli ... -2016.html

Wazari, is Arai statement reconcilable with the information you have?

The meaning of "lost in translation" is in full effect here. Based on my sources, what was really said in Japanese was, "Based on what was learned from this year's PU and current configuration, we have already begun planning on improvements for next year. The final layout will probably not be decided until going into the winter, however we have commenced on major changes."

"Our starting point has to be from this current layout which we designed in conjunction with McLaren's plan. Once this layout was decided upon we thought there would be more potential there. There is some potential still to be extracted from this layout."

I am getting this second hand from people I know inside Honda Racing currently. One individual is very close to Arai-san.

So yes, from my understanding, there are two configurations on the table being developed right now for next year. One still following the "size 0" configuration with major turbine updates and another "longer" unit. Both supposedly with completely redesigned MGU-H units.

Please remember, this is all second hand information and please consider it as intelligent speculation for this forum only.

Thank you for the information. Your intelligent speculation is a better resource than what is put out as "facts" elsewhere.

I wonder how they will choose if both concepts are similar. For example, how much the greater would the power output of the longer engine layout would have to be in order to abandon the size 0 concept?

[Wazari]

If history repeats itself, at the end of the day it will ultimately be McLaren's decision on what direction they chose to go with regards to the PU.

[Duke]

On that tweet from Albert Fabrega posted above he mentions the engine noise is different. Can someone confirm this?

Mentioned on Sky Sports F1 as well. Different exhaust shape.

[Sasha]

To back up Wazari statement that Honda is working on two different PU specs for next year.

Honda is working on a new PU with bigger compressor and better MGU-H for next year but it might not be ready by Feb 1 or 28!

So their Skunkworks(their best now and past engineers) is working on the backup plan(compressor still in V but about 10% bigger and getting the MGU-H to run 100% the whole lap).
Improving and fixing this years PU Turbocharger and MGU-H.