2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Edax]

Someone may have mentioned this already, but if they did I couldn't spot it for all the people screaming and flapping because they think the ship is sinking.

Does anyone else think that Merc have realised they're too far behind at this point to be in title contention and are holding back on upgrade until they have a lot more data and a proper understanding of the porpoising problem? The side effect of this being that they will, as a result of being lower down the table, then have more resource allowance in the second half of the season to work hard on the W14?

I think Toto was genuinely honest in his assessment. They do not know how to fix this (yet), so they are not purposely holding something back.

Correlation issues are difficult. It means you are not able to validate a fix other than in real use. Being blind design-wise you can only fall back to a last known working baseline (of which there is none since the regs changed) or copy a working design of a competitor (lot of work due to the difference in layout and tricky since the other cars are marginal on the same issue).

This weekend there was no time to test anything. I can see them bringing some test items in Miami, but just to validate the models. If successful they can select a direction for a bigger upgrade.

[taperoo2k]

Maybe they have another two months or so before deciding the concept for next year? In parallell with trying to understand the W13 I believe there are a couple of replicas of the F1-75 and the RB18 in the windtunnel at Mercedes. Knowing which concept has the most potential in the long run is key.

Highly doubt it. Maybe before the costcap. I think in this era it is more with understanding what you have and what you can, then to make "replicas". Because it's not like you can bolt RB sidepods on Mercedes on voila.

They can't parallel work with understanding the car, and making whole new car as you said as a replica of other teams.

What Mercedes have to do is get to the bottom of what's gone wrong and if it can be fixed. If it can be then it means they don't have to switch concepts for 2023 and can use the rest of the season to refine the car for 2023 (the rules shouldn't change all that much in 2023, other than loopholes being closed). If however the issues can't be solved then they will have to switch to a different design concept at some point in the near future so resources can be directed to that project and away from the current car. It would effectively be Mercedes writing off the season.

Mercedes could bolt on the Barcelona test spec sidepods to compare and contrast with the current sidepods. But I don't think they'll do it, as those side pods were probably only intended to allow the team to test the cars systems.

[silver]

Someone may have mentioned this already, but if they did I couldn't spot it for all the people screaming and flapping because they think the ship is sinking.

Does anyone else think that Merc have realised they're too far behind at this point to be in title contention and are holding back on upgrade until they have a lot more data and a proper understanding of the porpoising problem? The side effect of this being that they will, as a result of being lower down the table, then have more resource allowance in the second half of the season to work hard on the W14?

I expressed my concerns over a month back about the upgrade situation.

viewtopic.php?p=1046140#p1046140

The problem is the upgrades in pipeline. If those upgrades are being built with the assumption that, they can afford a bit more drag for the sake of gaining performance, then it's going to add to pain. It's possible as they didn't know where they stand in the competition. If this is going to be the case, then they have to rethink if they want to bring those upgrades out.

So far, their bigger problem is porpoising and they don't seem to have an idea of where the problem lies in their design. I am not sure if they have a way of knowing if the aero upgrades in the pipeline are going to add to the woes or help reduce them in this unforeseen problem. So this is the first priority. If they can simultaneously achieve aero upgrades and solving porpoising, then it's a good situation. But if they have to hold back upgrades until they figure out solution to porpoising, it's a problem. It's not an easy situation to be in.

[CHT]

If Merc issue is due to the lack of engine horse power, It will be much harder to fix the porpoising issue without compromising on speed. Perhaps the difference in performance on Russell and Hamilton car could be due to different set up choice, with Russell accepting to deal with more extreme porpoising but quicker drive, while Hamilton decide on the opposite approach. For young driver like Russell with so much to prove, he will be more willing to accept the tougher driving condition. As for Hamilton who has 7 WDC under his belt and already in his 30s, it may seem ridicules to punish his body with all the bouncing up and down to chase for P4 or P5.

[Hammerfist]

If Merc issue is due to the lack of engine horse power, It will be much harder to fix the porpoising issue without compromising on speed. Perhaps the difference in performance on Russell and Hamilton car could be due to different set up choice, with Russell accepting to deal with more extreme porpoising but quicker drive, while Hamilton decide on the opposite approach. For young driver like Russell with so much to prove, he will be more willing to accept the tougher driving condition. As for Hamilton who has 7 WDC under his belt and already in his 30s, it may seem ridicules to punish his body with all the bouncing up and down to chase for P4 or P5.

Strongly agree with this.

[PlatinumZealot]

The engine is still strong. The Williams and Astons were difficult to pass. The aero is the obvious problem. That giant wing is not doing mercedes any favours. Let the team fix that first and then we can analyse the engine further.

[AR3-GP]

The engine is still strong. The Williams and Astons were difficult to pass. The aero is the obvious problem. That giant wing is not doing mercedes any favours. Let the team fix that first and then we can analyse the engine further.

Most things were difficult to pass in Imola. There is 1 single straight where you can deploy all of the energy to defend. It's not like Bahrain or Jeddah where there are too many straights so ICE is exposed. Aston and Williams have no downforce which is why they are slow, but it makes them quick in the straight. Mercedes have said they are a bit off, maybe 1 tenth or so.

[S D]

The engine is still strong. The Williams and Astons were difficult to pass. The aero is the obvious problem. That giant wing is not doing mercedes any favours. Let the team fix that first and then we can analyse the engine further.

Most things were difficult to pass in Imola. There is 1 single straight where you can deploy all of the energy to defend. It's not like Bahrain or Jeddah where there are too many straights so ICE is exposed. Aston and Williams have no downforce which is why they are slow, but it makes them quick in the straight. Mercedes have said they are a bit off, maybe 1 tenth or so.

Not sure why there is all these arguments about the engine. Toto says it's about 1-2 tenths. For now I take him at his word because I don't see how this helps him politically to say this.

When you are 1 second down per lap, 1 tenth is in the noise. The balance is in the aerodynamics, suspension etc. They have come up with a unique design that requires the ride height to be very low in order for the concept to work properly but achieving this is mitigated by the bouncing.

If they can solve their issues and I think that they can, this novel concept could very well compensate for 1 tenth loss in engine power and be the fastest car on the track. The only issue is if they can achieve this in time to save the season. Even though Mercs are behind, if Ferrari and Redbull keep trading successes along with failures and mistakes, as we have seen, then neither will disappear beyond reach in the distance.

It seems to me that the biggest threat is if only one of either, Redbull or Ferrari, build bullet proof cars, keep advancing and minimize any mistakes.

[AR3-GP]

The engine is still strong. The Williams and Astons were difficult to pass. The aero is the obvious problem. That giant wing is not doing mercedes any favours. Let the team fix that first and then we can analyse the engine further.

Most things were difficult to pass in Imola. There is 1 single straight where you can deploy all of the energy to defend. It's not like Bahrain or Jeddah where there are too many straights so ICE is exposed. Aston and Williams have no downforce which is why they are slow, but it makes them quick in the straight. Mercedes have said they are a bit off, maybe 1 tenth or so.

Not sure why there is all these arguments about the engine. Toto says it's about 1-2 tenths. For now I take him at his word because I don't see how this helps him politically to say this.

When you are 1 second down per lap, 1 tenth is in the noise. The balance is in the aerodynamics, suspension etc. They have come up with a unique design that requires the ride height to be very low in order for the concept to work properly but achieving this is mitigated by the bouncing.

If they can solve their issues and I think that they can, this novel concept could very well compensate for 1 tenth loss in engine power and be the fastest car on the track. The only issue is if they can achieve this in time to save the season. Even though Mercs are behind, if Ferrari and Redbull keep trading successes along with failures and mistakes, as we have seen, then neither will disappear beyond reach in the distance.

It seems to me that the biggest threat is if only one of either, Redbull or Ferrari, build bullet proof cars, keep advancing and minimize any mistakes.

I did say in my post that you have quoted that Mercedes say it's a tenth or so.

Of course aerodynamics serves a much bigger role in laptime, but when you pull out of a slipstream to overtake and your car goes backwards, that becomes your biggest obstacle. How fast your aerodynamics can take you become irrelevant when you are stuck behind a Alpha Tauri because you are missing that last bit on the straights.

Hamilton had no problems clearing anybody in a DRS train in Brazil last season. Bottas had no problem clearing people in Monza last year. Compare that to Imola '22.

[CHT]

The engine is still strong. The Williams and Astons were difficult to pass. The aero is the obvious problem. That giant wing is not doing mercedes any favours. Let the team fix that first and then we can analyse the engine further.

Most things were difficult to pass in Imola. There is 1 single straight where you can deploy all of the energy to defend. It's not like Bahrain or Jeddah where there are too many straights so ICE is exposed. Aston and Williams have no downforce which is why they are slow, but it makes them quick in the straight. Mercedes have said they are a bit off, maybe 1 tenth or so.

Not sure why there is all these arguments about the engine. Toto says it's about 1-2 tenths. For now I take him at his word because I don't see how this helps him politically to say this.

When you are 1 second down per lap, 1 tenth is in the noise. The balance is in the aerodynamics, suspension etc. They have come up with a unique design that requires the ride height to be very low in order for the concept to work properly but achieving this is mitigated by the bouncing.

If they can solve their issues and I think that they can, this novel concept could very well compensate for 1 tenth loss in engine power and be the fastest car on the track. The only issue is if they can achieve this in time to save the season. Even though Mercs are behind, if Ferrari and Redbull keep trading successes along with failures and mistakes, as we have seen, then neither will disappear beyond reach in the distance.

It seems to me that the biggest threat is if only one of either, Redbull or Ferrari, build bullet proof cars, keep advancing and minimize any mistakes.

I think the general consensus on the pitlane is that Ferrari powered teams are generally stronger in the first few races this year. This is very similar to the time when Merc PU was dominating in the early phase of the new hybrid engine era.

When a team is down on power, there will always be a tendency to overdrive the engine, carrying more fuel which may lead to reliability issues later in the reason. The Ferrari engine seems to be rock solid at the moment. Honda has no lack of power, but reliability was or may still be a concern.

The Barcelona track will perhaps give a better picture of the current pecking order.

[S D]

Most things were difficult to pass in Imola. There is 1 single straight where you can deploy all of the energy to defend. It's not like Bahrain or Jeddah where there are too many straights so ICE is exposed. Aston and Williams have no downforce which is why they are slow, but it makes them quick in the straight. Mercedes have said they are a bit off, maybe 1 tenth or so.

Not sure why there is all these arguments about the engine. Toto says it's about 1-2 tenths. For now I take him at his word because I don't see how this helps him politically to say this.

When you are 1 second down per lap, 1 tenth is in the noise. The balance is in the aerodynamics, suspension etc. They have come up with a unique design that requires the ride height to be very low in order for the concept to work properly but achieving this is mitigated by the bouncing.

If they can solve their issues and I think that they can, this novel concept could very well compensate for 1 tenth loss in engine power and be the fastest car on the track. The only issue is if they can achieve this in time to save the season. Even though Mercs are behind, if Ferrari and Redbull keep trading successes along with failures and mistakes, as we have seen, then neither will disappear beyond reach in the distance.

It seems to me that the biggest threat is if only one of either, Redbull or Ferrari, build bullet proof cars, keep advancing and minimize any mistakes.

I did say in my post that you have quoted that Mercedes say it's a tenth or so.

Of course aerodynamics serves a much bigger role in laptime, but when you pull out of a slipstream to overtake and your car goes backwards, that becomes your biggest obstacle. How fast your aerodynamics can take you become irrelevant when you are stuck behind a Alpha Tauri because you are missing that last bit on the straights.

Hamilton had no problems clearing anybody in a DRS train in Brazil last season. Bottas had no problem clearing people in Monza last year. Compare that to Imola '22.

I might be mistaken but when you pull out of a slipstream the drag becomes critical. Yes a better engine will help but when you move into clean air then it's a combination of engine horsepower and the drag that determines if you can pass. I believe that 0.1 seconds can be overcome by a chassis with much less drag. Just my opinion.

Regarding DRS there seems to be a in speed differential gained with DRS by Mercedes, Redbull and Ferrari. Not all rear wings are equal. Case in point Ferrari is bringing what they hope is a lower drag rear wing to Miami. We'll see what effect that has on the DRS too.

[JordanMugen]

Wait wait wait. Remebmer the state of the W13 on the back of the Abu Dhabi situation has dampened Lewis' hunger. Things have changed. Don't we see Bottas still performing very well in the Alfa. Probably better than Lewis is doing. George is Okay. Qualifying well, which is what Bottas used to do, and he's hanging in there in the races. And As I said his hunger from merely just stepping up to Mercedes which is miles ahead of Williams, makes him immune to the fall-out of Abu dhabi.

There's no evidence to support any of this. Russell should have been in the Mercedes since 2020 or 2021.

To suggest Russell is merely performing "okay" is wildly underrating Russell's excellence... Russell absolutely could have competed for the 2020 WDC and the 2021 WDC in the Mercedes, IMO... The lack of timely promotion was a silly missed opportunity for both Mercedes and for Russell.

Russell could be a highly marketable 1xWDC or 2xWDC for Mercedes (recalling that Hamilton himself won such a title in his own second season of Grand Prix racing, with numerous marketing benefits for McLaren and Mercedes, as did Villeneuve with numerous benefits to Williams and Renault: 2nd season drivers are by no means too green to win titles) but Mercedes have stuffed up...

[PlatinumZealot]

Wait wait wait. Remebmer the state of the W13 on the back of the Abu Dhabi situation has dampened Lewis' hunger. Things have changed. Don't we see Bottas still performing very well in the Alfa. Probably better than Lewis is doing. George is Okay. Qualifying well, which is what Bottas used to do, and he's hanging in there in the races. And As I said his hunger from merely just stepping up to Mercedes which is miles ahead of Williams, makes him immune to the fall-out of Abu dhabi.

There's no evidence to support any of this. Russell should have been in the Mercedes since 2020 or 2021.

To suggest Russell is merely performing "okay" is wildly underrating Russell's excellence... Russell absolutely could have competed for the 2020 WDC and the 2021 WDC in the Mercedes, IMO... The lack of timely promotion was a silly missed opportunity for both Mercedes and for Russell.

Russell could be a highly marketable 1xWDC or 2xWDC for Mercedes (recalling that Hamilton himself won such a title in his own second season of Grand Prix racing, with numerous marketing benefits for McLaren and Mercedes, as did Villeneuve with numerous benefits to Williams and Renault: 2nd season drivers are by no means too green to win titles) but Mercedes have stuffed up...

Russell should keep it up. So far so good.
On the other side, Lewis has dropped to a really bad low. Just no fight in him. He got out the car when the Q2 session wasn't even over and George was there ready to go. Lewis' head was not in a good place no matter what he says.

[xaero]

Wait wait wait. Remebmer the state of the W13 on the back of the Abu Dhabi situation has dampened Lewis' hunger. Things have changed. Don't we see Bottas still performing very well in the Alfa. Probably better than Lewis is doing. George is Okay. Qualifying well, which is what Bottas used to do, and he's hanging in there in the races. And As I said his hunger from merely just stepping up to Mercedes which is miles ahead of Williams, makes him immune to the fall-out of Abu dhabi.

There's no evidence to support any of this. Russell should have been in the Mercedes since 2020 or 2021.

To suggest Russell is merely performing "okay" is wildly underrating Russell's excellence... Russell absolutely could have competed for the 2020 WDC and the 2021 WDC in the Mercedes, IMO... The lack of timely promotion was a silly missed opportunity for both Mercedes and for Russell.

Russell could be a highly marketable 1xWDC or 2xWDC for Mercedes (recalling that Hamilton himself won such a title in his own second season of Grand Prix racing, with numerous marketing benefits for McLaren and Mercedes, as did Villeneuve with numerous benefits to Williams and Renault: 2nd season drivers are by no means too green to win titles) but Mercedes have stuffed up...

Story now is completely different, but completing against Hamilton full season and defeating him when he is not downbeat is a totally different ask so, 2xWDC or, 1xWDC could have happened for George only in your dreams . Moreover trusting Merc's decision is more logical than some random opinion.

[selvam_e2002]

I would say no one is fast in this current season, Mercedes went backward hence others are fast. what a car they had in second half of the season in 2021. No one touch them.
we have plenty of time to over come this if they are able to fix it in time.