Mclaren Honda 2015

[windwaves]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120711

I think Mclaren could well be in trouble if Manor signs a deal with Mercedes for PU's. The word is that if Renault buys Lotus, Lotus won't be having Mercedes PU's next season, which means Mercedes will have an open slot to provide PU's for a 4th team. If it goes through, then there's also a chance that we could see Pascal Wehrlein in a Manor next season. This would also mean that whereas Ferrari has a satellite team in Haas F1, Manor would be Mercedes' satellite team.

Wehrlein not in a Force India? That's because Force India might have refused to be Mercedes' satellite team.

Exciting times...

at which point in time McL will no longer be able to count on Manor to avoid being DEAD LAST.

Anyway, sorry to see that McL is exactly where I said it would be right after pre-season testing: nowhere.
Very sadly the situation is really as bad as I expected back then and back then I was trying to get prepared for the worse hoping in some nice surprises. The worst materialized. And there is not even a thing I could imagine for getting out of this deep deep hole. Obviously I am counting on people much smarter than me to find a way. I am pessimistic though, so far such intelligence has proven completely idiotic. The sushi's cannot get their fishes together and Arai is embarrassing.

[zeph]

The sushi's cannot get their fishes together and Arai is embarrassing.

You are out of line. Reported.

[drunkf1fan]

I think Mclaren could well be in trouble if Manor signs a deal with Mercedes for PU's.

Why would they be in trouble? By all accounts, the issue with the Honda engine is similar to the 2014 Ferrari engine. Look how much they managed to turn things around in 1 year.

Ferrari realised their design flaw early, brought in several key engine guys(fuel guy from Merc, ERS guy from Lotus who was the ex Merc ERS guy and iirc one other engine guy) then spent probably the best part of a year building the new engine. They also did this on the back of a reliable if not very fast engine. By comparison Honda seem to have come to this realisation recently, they don't seem keen on bringing in experts to help them shortcut it, they look to have far less time to make the same changes Ferrari did and they are starting from a massively less reliable engine.

Hell even just from a data/testing standpoint(which is overestimated to a large degree anyway) Ferrari had themselves, Sauber and Manor running throughout the season giving feedback, Honda have just themselves and because of the lack of reliability a hell of a lot less laps than even a single Ferrari team managed last year.

On top of all of this, Ferrari replaced a lot of senior people and were fully on board with the changes, Mclaren have Ron, a stubborn and arrogant man, for large engine changes and likely increasing the engine size you'd need Ron to agree to a significant change in size and a big change in car design for next year. To be honest I think even he will give in to Honda demanding a bigger engine for more power and reliability... I'm just much less sure Ron will be reasonable than frankly most other team bosses in the same situation.

[willmesquita]

I think you need to review your understanding the mgu-h function.

The MGU-h cannot pass energy from turbine to compressor. It can transfer energy to either the MGU-k or the ES (battery) thats it.

It is true that the mgu-h can transfer to the ES and then from the ES back to the compressor to keep the boost up when off throttle but there is no direct link.

The power units have a "self sustaining" condition wherein under full throttle the excess boost pressure is harvested by the mgu-h and energy sent straight to the mgu-k without involving the ES at all.

There is evidence from the Monza GP that Mercedes have so much of this "excess boost" to harvest that they can power the MGU-k to its full 160bhp limit AND also recharge the ES.

In contrast Honda cannot keep the MGU-k running over the full length of the straight, they appear to be charging the ES for most of the lap and then deploying it on the straights until it is empty. It is the "self sustaining" mode that appears to be the biggest weaknesses of their PU.

Yes, I fully agree with you, I just didn't mention that the energy from MGU-H harvesting from turbine must be stored in ES before to be used later by the compressor. The same is for the direct transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K. But after reading the Arai's words I am not sure that the problem is in MGU-H. Could be MGU-K not generating enough energy and that's why requiring extra generation from MGU-H. If MGU-H compensates on the straight the lack of energy from ES then it will generate less energy for turbo boost in the exits. Also, I am not sure how much energy it can pass to MGU-K on the straight. Just guessing.

I'm really interested in a scheme that shows how the 1.6 Hybrid PU works in deep detail. Any link?

[j.yank]

I'm really interested in a scheme that shows how the 1.6 Hybrid PU works in deep detail. Any link?

I think the best source are the official FIA regulations: http://www.fia.com/file/22782/download?token=0yN48RON

Popular explanation could be seen here: http://world.honda.com/Formula-1/powerunit/

[Wazari]

The sushi's cannot get their fishes together and Arai is embarrassing.

You are out of line. Reported.

omg, OMG, OMG...... DID YOU CALL MOM ?

As a former member of Honda Racing and being of Japanese ancestry, I find your comment offensive and racist. It's even sadder if you don't realize it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, IMO Arai-san is a being used as a scapegoat and is a brilliant individual caught in a very difficult no-win situation.

[WaikeCU]

As a former member of Honda Racing and being of Japanese ancestry, I find your comment offensive and racist. It's even sadder if you don't realize it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, IMO Arai-san is a being used as a scapegoat and is a brilliant individual caught in a very difficult no-win situation.

Any chance company philosophy and vision have changed over the years and are sort of not ligned up as well as back in the 80's-90's?

[Wayne DR]

Yes, I fully agree with you, I just didn't mention that the energy from MGU-H harvesting from turbine must be stored in ES before to be used later by the compressor. The same is for the direct transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K. But after reading the Arai's words I am not sure that the problem is in MGU-H. Could be MGU-K not generating enough energy and that's why requiring extra generation from MGU-H. If MGU-H compensates on the straight the lack of energy from ES then it will generate less energy for turbo boost in the exits. Also, I am not sure how much energy it can pass to MGU-K on the straight. Just guessing.

Fully agree, they are having massive issues with ERS.

However, consider this, the two PU manufacturers making the most HP (Merc and Ferrari) are using air-water intercoolers located in the vee of the engine (less piping between the compressor and inlet valves), the two PU manufacturers who are "in the poo" are using air-air intercoolers located in the side pods (my whole house has less volume than their intake pipework post compressor).

I really think there is something in that too...

[Thunder]

Afaik only Ferrari has the Intercooler in the V, Merc has a Water / Air Intercooler in the Chassis.

[ME4ME]

Listen and learn, Ron:

Although Williams already has a title sponsor with Martini, the team is open that any chance of further boosting its coffers with fresh deals would be grabbed.

Claire Williams added: "Every team operates in a different way commercially and we have been very fortunate to attract some great brands to the team over the past couple of years.

"One of our greatest assets is that because we are an independent team we can be really, really flexible with our partnerships. I am a firm believer in the adage that beggers cannot be choosers

"If someone wants to come along and sponsor our team and give us £10 million, I will bite your hand off for it and I will give you the assets I want to give you. But I will not oversell and give you too many assets.

"I want that £10 million. I won't say no to it just because I want £40m – I need to keep my racing team going."

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... in-options

[Jolle]

I disagree, McLaren has set the trend to have a relative small ICE basis for the whole range. AMG has build their 4.0 V8 turbo to power their whole range with different turbo settings, bellypans and prob hybrid systems in the near future. Ferrari has build their 3,9 v8 turbo to first power the GTB and having a bigger role next the v12's.

That's true, but I don't think it is in contrast with what I wrote...
It is a matter of fact that who buy a supercar want some kind of pedigree and prestige in the engine...
presently among potential mclaren buyers there are "rumors" (I don't know if this is the right word) that the monoblock
of their 3.8 derives from a truck engine...(maybe that's not true eh! but the rumors exists)...
honda is perhaps the only brand that could grant top prestige and pedigree in their engines without interfering with mclaren with a car production too much high level.

It's the first time I heard those rumors, but it wouldn't surprise me that Ricardo started off with a truck engine, where else would you have the data on compact big bore turbocharged engines that are driven to 100% of their capabilities for a million miles without breaking down? Most companies go to specialists when it comes to those key components. Mercury outboard motors designed parts of some corvette engine is i'm not mistaken. Rotax is hired lots of times for engine development, especially in cars like these.

I think the lifespan of the 3.8v8 is at least 10 - 15 years before they completely redesign it. Just like any other manufacturer

Thinking about it a bit longer, what benefit could the two have, actually quite simple! Not the engine for their current lineup, but a McLaren-Honda that could rival the Porsche Boxter, Alfa 4C, SLK-AMG, etc.

For instance, Porsche builds and designs the 991 themselves, all in-house. Until recently they out-sourced the production of the Boxter, because as a small sportscar company, you just can't invest in a production model like that.

So, McLaren could design a nice carbon tub like chassis, powered by a Honda 4l turbo engine.

[Wazari]

As a former member of Honda Racing and being of Japanese ancestry, I find your comment offensive and racist. It's even sadder if you don't realize it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, IMO Arai-san is a being used as a scapegoat and is a brilliant individual caught in a very difficult no-win situation.

Any chance company philosophy and vision have changed over the years and are sort of not ligned up as well as back in the 80's-90's?

I assume you are speaking about Honda Racing vs. Honda Motors in general. The philosophy I don't believe would ever change. Honda Racing's philosophy always has been to be innovative with winning as the final goal. Innovation is key and to mimic is not the road to ultimate success. That's always been Honda Racing's philosophy from the 10000 meter view. I think the vision remains the same also. I'm sorry but I don't exactly know what you mean by lined up as well??

I think things were simpler back then when it achieving success with rule sets given. IMO, things actually got simpler as we went from turbos to normally aspirated engines. Our biggest challenge was how to keep the heads attached to the block, how to keep the valves seated at high RPM's and how to keep the internals from blowing up at high levels of boost. Then we went to larger displacement normally aspirated motors which was not that difficult in the overall scheme of things. The PU's today, (they are PU's, not simply just engines) are very complex and I think the lead times needed to achieve success is enormous.

[windwaves]

You are out of line. Reported.

omg, OMG, OMG...... DID YOU CALL MOM ?

As a former member of Honda Racing and being of Japanese ancestry, I find your comment offensive and racist. It's even sadder if you don't realize it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, IMO Arai-san is a being used as a scapegoat and is a brilliant individual caught in a very difficult no-win situation.

I am sorry you feel that way, but that is your problem, not mine. Call mama. From there to call me racist is a long long way, do not even try, you will get nowhere. OMG get a happy life man.

Now as to the scapegoat fictions story ? hey the new Star Wars is not out yet, you must be dreaming. The Honda engine is a piece of crap and he is responsible for that dept. Period. Close. The end. He failed totally and miserably.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes, I fully agree with you, I just didn't mention that the energy from MGU-H harvesting from turbine must be stored in ES before to be used later by the compressor. The same is for the direct transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K. But after reading the Arai's words I am not sure that the problem is in MGU-H. Could be MGU-K not generating enough energy and that's why requiring extra generation from MGU-H. If MGU-H compensates on the straight the lack of energy from ES then it will generate less energy for turbo boost in the exits. Also, I am not sure how much energy it can pass to MGU-K on the straight. Just guessing.

Fully agree, they are having massive issues with ERS.

However, consider this, the two PU manufacturers making the most HP (Merc and Ferrari) are using air-water intercoolers located in the vee of the engine (less piping between the compressor and inlet valves), the two PU manufacturers who are "in the poo" are using air-air intercoolers located in the side pods (my whole house has less volume than their intake pipework post compressor).

I really think there is something in that too...

Well.. Williams was more powerful than Mercedes last year, and actually are pretty close this year and guess what All mercedes customers are air to air intercooled. I am very sure that is not Mercedes' power secret. It aids their packaging, but going air to water is not the silver bullet for Honda. (Ranault actually changed from air to water to air to air).

[McG]

The reality is that McLaren don't really need a title sponsor at the moment. With all the Honda money they could probably go another year without a tittle or big sponsor. Last year McLaren themselves were operating on their biggest budget ever. There's money coming from somewhere.

People forget McLaren actually do have some sponsors. The small sponsors on their car probably make up a significant amount. There is also the work behind the scenes that JB and Fernando do, adverts and stuff. McLaren are known to work their drivers hard in that area.

Also McLaren and Honda are products themselves. Would 1 terrible year in F1 put you off buying a Honda or McLaren road car?

McLaren aren't exactly fighting to survive in F1 so let's not put a lot of weight on their lack of prominent sponsorship.

Listen and learn, Ron:

Although Williams already has a title sponsor with Martini, the team is open that any chance of further boosting its coffers with fresh deals would be grabbed.

Claire Williams added: "Every team operates in a different way commercially and we have been very fortunate to attract some great brands to the team over the past couple of years.

"One of our greatest assets is that because we are an independent team we can be really, really flexible with our partnerships. I am a firm believer in the adage that beggers cannot be choosers

"If someone wants to come along and sponsor our team and give us £10 million, I will bite your hand off for it and I will give you the assets I want to give you. But I will not oversell and give you too many assets.

"I want that £10 million. I won't say no to it just because I want £40m – I need to keep my racing team going."

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... in-options