Mclaren Honda 2015

[WaikeCU]

The reality is that McLaren don't really need a title sponsor at the moment. With all the Honda money they could probably go another year without a tittle or big sponsor. Last year McLaren themselves were operating on their biggest budget ever. There's money coming from somewhere.

People forget McLaren actually do have some sponsors. The small sponsors on their car probably make up a significant amount. There is also the work behind the scenes that JB and Fernando do, adverts and stuff. McLaren are known to work their drivers hard in that area.

Also McLaren and Honda are products themselves. Would 1 terrible year in F1 put you off buying a Honda or McLaren road car?

McLaren aren't exactly fighting to survive in F1 so let's not put a lot of weight on their lack of prominent sponsorship.

Could someone recall if this situation was similar back in the 90's with Mclaren switching to Ford engines in '93 and Senna departing to Williams at the end of the season before Mclaren switching to Peugeot engines in '94? Marlboro remained the title sponsor till '96. Back then that was a big title sponsor.

The partnership with Mercedes-Benz was a new chapter and remained with Mclaren until 2014. Was the Mercedes-Benz partnership starting from '95 similar to what Honda is doing now moneywise? If I recall correctly, the Merc engine back then was also unreliable, but was it similar sized deal?

[FW17]

Yes, lot of money from Merc to McL

So much started flowing in that Ron built the Technology Center

[Phil]

The reality is that McLaren don't really need a title sponsor at the moment. With all the Honda money they could probably go another year without a tittle or big sponsor. Last year McLaren themselves were operating on their biggest budget ever. There's money coming from somewhere.

I'm not going to put much faith into "biggest budget" arguments. A budget is simply a budget and shows that money is available. Nothing more, nothing less. The matter of the fact is that since 2012 McLaren have been severely underperforming. This is now the 3rd year in a row and the trend is showing downward, not up. In fact, they've gone from being a front-running team, to a midfield one and are now at the back of the grid.

This will mean that finding sponsors is getting more and more difficult. To sponsor a team at the front and in their prime is very different to sponsoring a team in the midfield, or at the back of the grid, facing severe problems, reliability and not very happy drivers. This will have an effect sooner or later, if it hasn't already. People may point to the fact that Honda is the big investor here, pumping money into it, but what if they won't get their act together? 2015 is turning out to be a catastrophic year, lots of problems and obvious design issues with the engine (the entire package). A turn around this season is unlikely. Will 2016 be better? Maybe - but they have a long way to go and the competition isn't standing still. Even assuming they will solve most of their ERS issues, they might still be the weakest of the bunch next year. And the overall atmosphere in the team itself isn't exactly promising either, pointing to more problems coming their way in this partnership. Honda is already pointing out that the chassis isn't that good and it's not all their engine - all the while, McLaren is pointing to the engine. Trust in each others ability to overcome these issues is shrinking, fast. Frustration is going up. What about the drivers? It's rumored Button isn't too happy - we see that - that might be due to his seat in 2016 being an uncertainty or him losing faith too. Alonso? Just look at him. He might be putting on brave faces, but that brave face will only get you as far as long as you still have confidence in the team. My bet is; If 2015 doesn't show signs of clear improvements and 2016 ends up a repeat of this year, he's gonna have enough of it and move on.

All the while, finding high value sponsors is going to get even more difficult. They might still have money NOW, though I'm very doubtful that will continue for long, especially if Honda fails to get it right [relative to the strong competition].

[FW17]

But all things considered next year should be good for team and engine which should put them back at front.

I guess Honda and associated companies should be able to make up the budget deficit. Their R&D budget is more than $ 7 billion a year

[Phil]

All things considered? And that is? Because it's Honda? Sorry, I don't really see it. In 2014, they had a Mercedes and they weren't anywhere at the front. The only way I see them at the front is if either the Honda can jump the Mercedes somehow, or if McLaren make a huge jump forward and Honda somehow achieves parity. And I'm anything but optimistic about that. Look at how much Ferrari improved from 2014 to 2015 - but it still wasn't enough to close the gap. Honda has to make up twice that.

I also see the competition getting stronger with RedBull either somehow securing a Mercedes deal or Ferrari engine that should make them more competitive, and unlike McLaren, I have full faith in them to actually deliver a good and strong chassis if the power unit itself is reasonably competitive. Ferrari is on a good path too - they already have a strong package that they will be able to improve on. McLaren-Honda is nowhere. They can't improve the chassis easily because they have been fighting reliability, and now that reliability has gotten better, they are still too slow. That effectively means that they are already compromised vs teams that have a solid *working* foundation they can improve on. That includes both Ferrari and Mercedes. The best I can see for McLaren-Honda is 4th next year and that depends on how strong the Mercedes customer teams will be (maybe even the Ferrari ones depending on how competitive they are on the chassis) as well as how strong that Honda PU is.

[Schuttelberg]

^

Can't sum up the situation better. Exactly my feelings!

[WaikeCU]

So what it means is that Mclaren are eyeing to bounce back relatively next season and fight for the title of best of the rest. They would probably focus on 2017 when again big technical rule changes will overhaul F1 and then they hopefully will find a jump in performance that will reorder the grid by starting earlier than the competition.

[FW17]

By all things considered I mean that I expect Honda to be on par with Ferrari

Twice the improvement? what does that mean? The basic IC is not that far behind that of Ferrari and certainly catchable. The engines have almost reached the peak of performance and further improvements are going to be marginal. The difference between the latest engines of Ferrari and Merc is probably 30 hp which includes the ERS system.

Certainly that can be bridged over the winter.

McLaren can also come good with the chassis now that they have a clear direction and the next year car will be an evolution of this years car concept.

So even if they do not beat Merc they should be where Ferrari are this year.

[Phil]

Twice the improvement means that Honda arguably isn't even close to where the Mercedes teams were last year (that's what we are comparing them to, right?), not with the ERS problems they are having. They are trying to catch a moving target. So their rate-of-development needs to be better than the rest, all the while they are handicapped by having the least amount of know-how in the field of ERS (all the others had the last few years to start on that). I don't doubt the ability of them to produce a great IC - that is pretty undisputed and from what we are reading, that part seems to be good. But that's not where most of the performance is coming from this year; it's specifically in the efficiency of the ERS units and precisely where they are having problems.

You seem to think they will be at the front next year? For that to happen IMO, they need to have a reasonable competitive PU package and McLaren needs to deliver on the chassis side. I have little faith in both. McLaren hasn't shown particular great chassis since 2012, even with the Mercedes PU in 2014. Honda has the least experience with ERS. So I see them quite handicapped to deliver on those targets.

You might have a point that the peak of performance might be reached soon and that 'diminishing returns' means that the PUs are going to be reasonably close in overall efficiency. First, Honda needs to get there. I personally think it would be a huge achievement if Ferrari can outright rival Mercedes on the engine front by 2016. If they achieve that, Ferrari will have achieved that with their 3rd generation PU. You are effectively asking Honda to do that in 2 - something both Ferrari and Renault have failed to do this year.

I would have been way more optimistic if Honda had used that year of 2014 to watch the others and be reasonably competitive in 2015 (e.g. midfield, or at least where Renault was last year). They not even achieved that, so admittedly, my estimation of what they can realistically achieve next year has gone down significantly.

As for the 30hp difference between Ferrari and Mercedes. It's hard to judge that - on one hand, I think they are close, on the other, well - there's a huge difference. When Mercedes does show their real pace, it is absolutely staggering. I think most of the time, they are not showing it at all - concentrating on reliability. They might not have that much more performance in hand, but I think they are in an extremely comfortable position for 2016. First other teams need to get there, while handicapped by tokens and McLaren-Honda also has a chassis they need to prove first. My take is that they might deliver on one of those two things, but I'm not confident they will be with both, hence why I think they will be in the front-to-middle midfield at best.

[Andres125sx]

By all things considered I mean that I expect Honda to be on par with Ferrari

Twice the improvement? what does that mean? The basic IC is not that far behind that of Ferrari and certainly catchable. The engines have almost reached the peak of performance and further improvements are going to be marginal. The difference between the latest engines of Ferrari and Merc is probably 30 hp which includes the ERS system.

Certainly that can be bridged over the winter.

McLaren can also come good with the chassis now that they have a clear direction and the next year car will be an evolution of this years car concept.

So even if they do not beat Merc they should be where Ferrari are this year.

Upvoted only because this thread need some positivism



I don´t get how people keep talking about power as main difference between cars. Peak power is irrelevant, it´s for how long in each lap you can apply that peak power what matters. I believe when Honda says his engine provide more power than Renault, problem is not peak power, problem is they can apply that power for less than a half of any other manufacturer, so even Renault, with a lower peak power, is much faster in the straights.

I don´t think solving mgu-h issues is that difficult, if the ICE is up to the task mgu should be easy to improve. Reaching Mercedes level of perfomance is a different matter, but Ferrari proved mgu is easy to improve a lot in just one winter.

[FW17]

Lets not talk the best engine of 2014

McLaren were completely handicapped by Mercedes in 2014, with different fuels and very limited packaging info - example their exhaust opening in the MP4-29 was way too big for the engine, because Mercedes never sent them updated info until the block turned up in the last bit of testing.

While Merc were testing during the first test McLaren were seeing the engine for the first time.

[Phil]

@Andres;

Absolutely. Perhaps it should have been mentioned, but indeed, when I refer to power, I'm not talking about a number that can be achieved over 5 seconds - I'm talking about 'power' that can be delivered consistently and as long as possible. In that context, it's the efficiency is key - first by having good peak numbers, but also having an efficient recovery unit that can maximize the kinetic energy and feed that back into usable power. Hence my arguments that where (McLaren-)Honda is behind is also the most challenging area - one they have the least amount of experience given their absence of F1 since ERS was introduced.

[Jef Patat]

Concerning the sponsoring and the budgets:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120727

[GoranF1]

I dont know if anyone posted this before or not but i think this is Inbrilliant article on current MclarenHonda up and downs!

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34208407

[j.yank]

I dont know if anyone posted this before or not but i think this is Inbrilliant article on current MclarenHonda up and downs!

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34208407

I am curious to see comments on this written by Andrew Benson:

"Adding the 700bhp Mercedes is reputed to develop from its ICE, to the regulated 160bhp of MGU-K power and the extra 'free' electrical energy from the MGU-H of as much as 30-40bhp, gives a total Mercedes power output in the region of 890-900bhp."