Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PhillipM]

I wonder who their mystery customer is who uses 1200 grit diamond stones to finish their cylinders

I mean, it's hardly a secret, ceramic finished blocks have been around in road cars for decades and you use those finer diamond stones for honing them.

All this stuff people are talking about here is old tech, nothing anyone didn't already know about in F1

[godlameroso]

I wonder who their mystery customer is who uses 1200 grit diamond stones to finish their cylinders

I mean, it's hardly a secret, ceramic finished blocks have been around in road cars for decades and you use those finer diamond stones for honing them.

All this stuff people are talking about here is old tech, nothing anyone didn't already know about in F1

Right, using coatings on bores is nothing new. The material being used is however, very new, at least for Honda. As such, it takes a little bit of time to work that material.

The harder the cylinder material the harder it is to hone. The ICE has been around for over 100 years. Not much has changed, it's just more sophisticated.

You can't compare a turbocharged car from the 80's to a turbocharged car of today. Even though they're both using tech from WW2.

Motor oil has also come on leaps and bounds through the innovation of material science. The additives in your Wally world bought motor oil is leagues better than the best stuff they had in the 60's. The sophistication of the cutting edge, money is no object stuff, is also pretty impressive.

Mr.Wolff is perhaps being very political when he warns about a fuel and oil war going on behind the scenes. I don't think Mr.Wolff will be unprepared for such an eventuality.

A new development for lubricants is ionic liquids, ie molten salts, which have tunable properties and can have very good lubricity and film strength while having very low viscosity. Well not really new, it's been around for a while, but it's had a lot of interest from oil companies.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Lubricants

[_cerber1]

You're making gods out of humans. No one knows everything, NO ONE. If you think all the engine guys in Honda know everything there is to know, how do you explain the constant development? You don't need to develop anything if you already know it all. You will go directly to the best design you know, with all the confidence that is the best one.

You don't run 5 power units in parallel, constantly iterate, or change things if you already know everything and have pure confidence in your omniscience.

Calculations are assumptions, you are honestly saying assumptions are more powerful than actual science. I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your perspective.

The people at Honda are scientists, they investigate nature with experiments. If you build things without redundancies, only with calculations, you get this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida ... e_collapse

Safety margin is important.

Of course, people cannot know everything at once. For this, there are special departments of promising developments, which are engaged in the study of new things. After carrying out the calculation, analysis and a full cycle of tests, they give their opinion on whether it is possible to use a new material or technology in the future. Nobody will be involved in experiments on a motor that will go in the season.

[godlameroso]

Kumabo is not Honda. Kumabo metal company developed the material for Honda.

Again, you have the material for a few months 2020 is right around the corner. Do you go all out on a new experimental coating, push it to the limit? How can you in the middle of a pandemic lockdown? So you build a safety margin on previous data, and slowly turn it up.

2021 there's no pandemic lockdown, you've had a full year to test the material, how to work it, and push it to its limit.

Big difference, not to mention there was no in season update.

[godlameroso]

You're making gods out of humans. No one knows everything, NO ONE. If you think all the engine guys in Honda know everything there is to know, how do you explain the constant development? You don't need to develop anything if you already know it all. You will go directly to the best design you know, with all the confidence that is the best one.

You don't run 5 power units in parallel, constantly iterate, or change things if you already know everything and have pure confidence in your omniscience.

Calculations are assumptions, you are honestly saying assumptions are more powerful than actual science. I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your perspective.

The people at Honda are scientists, they investigate nature with experiments. If you build things without redundancies, only with calculations, you get this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida ... e_collapse

Safety margin is important.

Of course, people cannot know everything at once. For this, there are special departments of promising developments, which are engaged in the study of new things. After carrying out the calculation, analysis and a full cycle of tests, they give their opinion on whether it is possible to use a new material or technology in the future. Nobody will be involved in experiments on a motor that will go in the season.

Ahem what is the dyno for?

[PlatinumZealot]

Kumabo is not Honda. Kumabo metal company developed the material for Honda.

Again, you have the material for a few months 2020 is right around the corner. Do you go all out on a new experimental coating, push it to the limit? How can you in the middle of a pandemic lockdown? So you build a safety margin on previous data, and slowly turn it up.

2021 there's no pandemic lockdown, you've had a full year to test the material, how to work it, and push it to its limit.

Big difference, not to mention there was no in season update.

No engineer, or engine maker will use an experimental coating on an engine that needs to last 3,000 km, I can tell you that. That is too great a risk to run an experiment in something like the Power unit where the penalty is severe. Any new material to be used in the race, is not really new, but tried and tested in all sorts of use cases.

[godlameroso]

Kumabo is not Honda. Kumabo metal company developed the material for Honda.

Again, you have the material for a few months 2020 is right around the corner. Do you go all out on a new experimental coating, push it to the limit? How can you in the middle of a pandemic lockdown? So you build a safety margin on previous data, and slowly turn it up.

2021 there's no pandemic lockdown, you've had a full year to test the material, how to work it, and push it to its limit.

Big difference, not to mention there was no in season update.

No engineer, or engine maker will use an experimental coating on an engine that needs to last 3,000 km, I can tell you that. That is too great a risk to run an experiment in something like the Power unit where the penalty is severe. Any new material to be used in the race, is not really new, but tried and tested in all sorts of use cases.

If the dyno shows good numbers, but you have not ran it on track, how can you be sure it will work exactly on track as on the dyno? We remember 2017 don't we? The engine worked fine on the dyno, on track, not so much. So you leave safety margin to avoid any issues that comes from environmental differences. Since you cannot simulate actual environmental conditions you cannot calculate true on track wear.

Then actual on track running, which can only happen during the season showed Honda the material was safe to push. So much so, they were able to have very low wear on the final engine spec, it could likely have done another two races without losing performance. However once the season started it was too late and they could not introduce a more aggressive spec. They actually improved the engine from testing to the season opener, but did not improve as much as they could have with more time. Once the season started, their hands were essentially tied they could not change the spec of the engine.

Imagine now, you understand how far you can push the material, you've had a whole year to see how far you can bump up cylinder pressure. Would you push it to the absolute theoretical limit that will let you finish 7-8 races? Would you still leave yourself a safety margin?

Safety margin is very important for obvious strategic reasons.

The difference between the final engine Honda used vs the 1st was the improved ring seal because they improved how to work the material. This gave them excellent longevity, they could push the engines hard with little wear, Gasly's engine demise was unfortunate. The fact they had such good reliability paid off for Red Bull at the end of the season, they could run the engine harder than Mercedes.

[PlatinumZealot]

Kumabo is not Honda. Kumabo metal company developed the material for Honda.

Again, you have the material for a few months 2020 is right around the corner. Do you go all out on a new experimental coating, push it to the limit? How can you in the middle of a pandemic lockdown? So you build a safety margin on previous data, and slowly turn it up.

2021 there's no pandemic lockdown, you've had a full year to test the material, how to work it, and push it to its limit.

Big difference, not to mention there was no in season update.

No engineer, or engine maker will use an experimental coating on an engine that needs to last 3,000 km, I can tell you that. That is too great a risk to run an experiment in something like the Power unit where the penalty is severe. Any new material to be used in the race, is not really new, but tried and tested in all sorts of use cases.

If the dyno shows good numbers, but you have not ran it on track, how can you be sure it will work exactly on track as on the dyno? We remember 2017 don't we? The engine worked fine on the dyno, on track, not so much. So you leave safety margin to avoid any issues that comes from environmental differences. Since you cannot simulate actual environmental conditions you cannot calculate true on track wear.

Then actual on track running, which can only happen during the season showed Honda the material was safe to push. So much so, they were able to have very low wear on the final engine spec, it could likely have done another two races without losing performance. However once the season started it was too late and they could not introduce a more aggressive spec. They actually improved the engine from testing to the season opener, but did not improve as much as they could have with more time. Once the season started, their hands were essentially tied they could not change the spec of the engine.

Imagine now, you understand how far you can push the material, you've had a whole year to see how far you can bump up cylinder pressure. Would you push it to the absolute theoretical limit that will let you finish 7-8 races? Would you still leave yourself a safety margin?

Safety margin is very important for obvious strategic reasons.

The difference between the final engine Honda used vs the 1st was the improved ring seal because they improved how to work the material. This gave them excellent longevity, they could push the engines hard with little wear, Gasly's engine demise was unfortunate. The fact they had such good reliability paid off for Red Bull at the end of the season, they could run the engine harder than Mercedes.

The word you used was experimental. In engineering when you say experiemental... You mean testing to see if something works as theorized. For example, experimental aircraft... Or a test vehicle.. Basically you are proving if a hypothesis is true. In the case of an experimental material it would be tested in a controlled condition next to some other baseline or reference. You wouldnt really risk life and limb (or millions) going into a season with an experimental material in the power unit!

With the harsh power unit penalties. What do you do when you have four engines exploding in Melbourne? Experiments belong on the test bed. Not in the race. Remember Honda in 2015 to 2018? They were prepared to bring testing to the track and they knew the consequenses.
Anything that (is not an emergency fix) has made it to the track has gone through months of development and testing. Honda's guys are very methodical and have gone past that stage of experiementing like that and RedBull did not allow that in 2020 because they were expecting to fight for the championship.

I think any experimental liner material would be tested on the dyno. The wear measurement of a part is especially very sensitive scientific controls. They would compare like for like on a test bed.

[godlameroso]

No engineer, or engine maker will use an experimental coating on an engine that needs to last 3,000 km, I can tell you that. That is too great a risk to run an experiment in something like the Power unit where the penalty is severe. Any new material to be used in the race, is not really new, but tried and tested in all sorts of use cases.

If the dyno shows good numbers, but you have not ran it on track, how can you be sure it will work exactly on track as on the dyno? We remember 2017 don't we? The engine worked fine on the dyno, on track, not so much. So you leave safety margin to avoid any issues that comes from environmental differences. Since you cannot simulate actual environmental conditions you cannot calculate true on track wear.

Then actual on track running, which can only happen during the season showed Honda the material was safe to push. So much so, they were able to have very low wear on the final engine spec, it could likely have done another two races without losing performance. However once the season started it was too late and they could not introduce a more aggressive spec. They actually improved the engine from testing to the season opener, but did not improve as much as they could have with more time. Once the season started, their hands were essentially tied they could not change the spec of the engine.

Imagine now, you understand how far you can push the material, you've had a whole year to see how far you can bump up cylinder pressure. Would you push it to the absolute theoretical limit that will let you finish 7-8 races? Would you still leave yourself a safety margin?

Safety margin is very important for obvious strategic reasons.

The difference between the final engine Honda used vs the 1st was the improved ring seal because they improved how to work the material. This gave them excellent longevity, they could push the engines hard with little wear, Gasly's engine demise was unfortunate. The fact they had such good reliability paid off for Red Bull at the end of the season, they could run the engine harder than Mercedes.

The word you used was experimental. In engineering when you say experiemental... You mean testing to see if something works as theorized. For example, experimental aircraft... Or a test vehicle.. Basically you are proving if a hypothesis is true. In the case of an experimental material it would be tested in a controlled condition next to some other baseline or reference. You wouldnt really risk life and limb (or millions) going into a season with an experimental material in the power unit!

With the harsh power unit penalties. What do you do when you have four engines exploding in Melbourne? Experiments belong on the test bed. Not in the race. Remember Honda in 2015 to 2018? They were prepared to bring testing to the track and they knew the consequenses.
Anything that (is not an emergency fix) has made it to the track has gone through months of development and testing. Honda's guys are very methodical and have gone past that stage of experiementing like that and RedBull did not allow that in 2020 because they were expecting to fight for the championship.

I think any experimental liner material would be tested on the dyno. The wear measurement of a part is especially very sensitive scientific controls. They would compare like for like on a test bed.

I think you miss a critical detail in my explanation and I don't think overall we're in disagreement.

Yes you can test these parts on the dyno, but the key thing is the dyno is not the track. Eventually the rubber has to meet the road, and until it does you just won't know what happens.

Verstappen had a DNF in race 1, mechanical failure. The power unit and drive train are so integrated that you cannot say it was Honda or Red Bull's failure, it was a team failure. The prototype car was built too far on the limit and the track proved too destructive for the chassis.

The aero on the car took time to get working correctly, and that's because there is NO other car like the RB16 they can copy from, it is a one off experimental prototype. All their testing and CFD and calculations couldn't find what running the car on track showed. Same with Honda, so they could be well prepared, but there's always some hesitation that the track will show something unexpected.

I agree with you about Honda's methodical nature, and the way they jumped on this material was also very exciting because it is a very Honda way of doing things. Being unique and pushing boundaries, neat and functional engineering, just getting the basics working nicely.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think you are missusing the word experiemental.
A formula 1 car is a prototype yes, and parts are usually developed in testing at the track... But i would not say that Honda Races an engine with experimental materials over the 2020 season... It would be just wreckless.

When you use the words experiemental materials... That alludes to the engineer's for argument's sake, using carbon nantotube driveshafts and hoping they won't break over 3000km or whatever the mileage is. .

What I am getting at, is the words experimental material.. Alludes to something that has never been proven in the service application before (or a simulation of it).. Or to be less extreme, material that is still unproven even on the dyno.

Experimental aircraft.. Would you take one into war? Or have it in service for decades?
Or take an experimental Covid vaccine and test it on millions of persons?

[godlameroso]

I think you are missusing the word experiemental.
A formula 1 car is a prototype yes, and parts are usually developed in testing at the track... But i would not say that Honda Races an engine with experimental materials over the 2020 season... It would be just wreckless.

When you use the words experiemental materials... That alludes to the engineer's for argument's sake, using carbon nantotube driveshafts and hoping they won't break over 3000km or whatever the mileage is. .

What I am getting at, is the words experimental material.. Alludes to something that has never been proven in the service application before (or a simulation of it).. Or to be less extreme, material that is still unproven even on the dyno.

Experimental aircraft.. Would you take one into war? Or have it in service for decades?
Or take an experimental Covid vaccine and test it on millions of persons?

That's a spicy comment bro. All over the term experimental. You are making too big a deal out of the term. It is a loaded term and demanding it mean specific things creates unnecessary tension. For the purposes of this conversation it must remain vague and somewhat nebulous. You can pony up the cash that it takes to do these experiments and developments and I'm sure the relevant parties would jump at the chance to tell you everything themselves. They already ponied up learned and developed the hard way, why do you get to be special and learn all that for free? Just because you're a cutie pie?

[ryaan2904]

I think you are missusing the word experiemental.
A formula 1 car is a prototype yes, and parts are usually developed in testing at the track... But i would not say that Honda Races an engine with experimental materials over the 2020 season... It would be just wreckless.

When you use the words experiemental materials... That alludes to the engineer's for argument's sake, using carbon nantotube driveshafts and hoping they won't break over 3000km or whatever the mileage is. .

What I am getting at, is the words experimental material.. Alludes to something that has never been proven in the service application before (or a simulation of it).. Or to be less extreme, material that is still unproven even on the dyno.

Experimental aircraft.. Would you take one into war? Or have it in service for decades?
Or take an experimental Covid vaccine and test it on millions of persons?

Dunno about the other stuff but Covid vaccine they did. Test on millions of ppl with it being largely experimental
That aside, I totally agree with the point here.
Knowing this season was gonna be with zero upgrades to the engine, I doubt Honda introduced any experimental part on their engine. Hell, they had engine problems and dnfs with already tested parts. The teams need to know a definite margin of error here, especially for no upgrade seasons. Imo, you lose that clear cut answer for what went wrong when when you introduce experimental parts.

I doubt RBR would have taken that kinda risk anyways.

[rgava]

Experimental aircraft.. Would you take one into war? Or have it in service for decades?

Take care!
If you take a look at EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association). There is thousands of Experimental Aircrafts in service for decades all over the world!

As godlameroso said, you are making too much of a deal about the word "Experimental"

I would say a new liner material is "experimental" until proven on track. But this is clearly not the meaning you are giving to it.

All in all, small wording differences, but I think you both are going around the same think.

What is interesting for me is the "Honda way" and the fact they are introducing a unique liner material, not used by any other high performance engine (as far as we know) and the apparent jump in wear behaviour this has brought to their engines.

[Blackout]

What is interesting for me is the "Honda way" and the fact they are introducing a unique liner material, not used by any other high performance engine (as far as we know)

Source? I thought this was just speculation

[godlameroso]

What is interesting for me is the "Honda way" and the fact they are introducing a unique liner material, not used by any other high performance engine (as far as we know)

Source? I thought this was just speculation

It is not speculation, Honda has stated publicly that they developed a new plating material for pistons and cylinder bores with Koumabou metal corp.

https://serakota.blog.ss-blog.jp/2020-08-27









PS, now that's a gorgeous cylinder hone, I wish there were high res pictures.