[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Moore77]

Moore, people here have asked just yesterday to keep it civil. You post your viewpoint, and put sentences like “only people with a brain”. So he who has not the same viewpoint as you has no brain, or is a purple unicorn. Not the worst insults but nonetheless, just refrain from doing so. Do you think you make anyone more susceptible to your view if you do that?

I did not intend that comment to any individual having a discussion here. If you read the whole thing, you will understand that there are grounds (anyone who wish to ignore those, wouldn't really be ignorant?) to believe what Montezemolo said was just a silly excuse for his own team's failures and why it is far fetched from any reality that, not just Mercedes, any constructor would have focused in 2014 while locked in battle in 2007. No offences intended really. Thank you for highlighting.

[Edit] This is a view point from an ardent Ferrari fan.

[epo]

Honda did a great job, maybe a bit conservative but that is understandable from where they are coming. Just with F1 freezing an engine for a whole season is just bollocks. One change during the season should be fine and nice, we all love tech and F1 is all about tech. Shame, but they also wanted to cut in costs, but yeah these are the consequences then.

[Sieper]

ThankS Moore. Yes, we all have our shall we say, reference points, outlook on what is going on. I do think Mercedes got a big headstart, Put all the pieces of the puzzle in place (get Hamilton on board, form a team with great staff Etc. Etc.). Exactly how long, nobody knows. Probably never will until books are being published and then still will be disputed. F1 is politics. FIA wanted Mercedes in, a viable opponent for Ferrari. And Mercedes wanted in but for the win. that is very clear to me.

For them winning is even more important then for a top end sportscar manufacturer. For Ferrari just always having been there, the heritage, the struggle these last years, add to the myth that is the brand already. Ofcourse they aim to win but Their management will not pull out as Merc might should they not have been able to win.

In any case, this is the AMR Honda thread and for sure Merc had a headstart on Honda. And then they went size zero with just 2 cars worth of data at first (I understand why) so that Honda still has to catch up is not weird.

And neither is it impossible. I think they thought they would over the winter but it seems Merc has made a very big step. Something I certainly have some purple unicorn datapoints for in my head.

I think right now there is a tug of war behind the screens that we hear nothing of. We just see some of the results.

[mafeotul]

I understand Honda ran the Pu slightly under powered this weekend? Any reasons why? It could explain the extreme deficit the Hamilton.

[DChemTech]

I understand Honda ran the Pu slightly under powered this weekend? Any reasons why? It could explain the extreme deficit the Hamilton.

Max had issues with his engine after qualifying, so they reverted back to the engine they used in the first several (4?) races of the season. But, because this was an older engine, they probably ran it with a bit less grunt.

[mafeotul]

ThankS Moore. Yes, we all have our shall we say, reference points, outlook on what is going on. I do think Mercedes got a big headstart, Put all the pieces of the puzzle in place (get Hamilton on board, form a team with great staff Etc. Etc.). Exactly how long, nobody knows. Probably never will until books are being published and then still will be disputed. F1 is politics. FIA wanted Mercedes in, a viable opponent for Ferrari. And Mercedes wanted in but for the win. that is very clear to me.

For them winning is even more important then for a top end sportscar manufacturer. For Ferrari just always having been there, the heritage, the struggle these last years, add to the myth that is the brand already. Ofcourse they aim to win but Their management will not pull out as Merc might should they not have been able to win.

In any case, this is the AMR Honda thread and for sure Merc had a headstart on Honda. And then they went size zero with just 2 cars worth of data at first (I understand why) so that Honda still has to catch up is not weird.

And neither is it impossible. I think they thought they would over the winter but it seems Merc has made a very big step. Something I certainly have some purple unicorn datapoints for in my head.

I think right now there is a tug of war behind the screens that we hear nothing of. We just see some of the results.

I mean, talking legal upgrades, and legitimate gains, Honda made some beautiful steps last season. From the horrible qualifying in Australia to winning in Austria, it certainly seemed like GP2 to GP1 kinda gains. And with all TD's following Ferrari's "interesting" engine, they are still up there, just goes to show, the quality and the technological prowess. I mean, the Mercs have had what? Over a decade of experience and so much money that they could sustain 3 midfield teams and still come second. The compete with that within two years is utterly impressive.

[Sieper]

They went back to the first PU. Marko explained they saw some anomalies in the data after saturday. To me that sounds as an excuse for FIA allowing them to revert to the older unit. The older unit has more mileage so likely Honda would not allow full power on it. Could very well be.

On this track you cannot overtake, certainly not on the straight against high power mode mercedes. I think they want to save the fresher PU for races they have a better chance.

[Sieper]

ThankS Moore. Yes, we all have our shall we say, reference points, outlook on what is going on. I do think Mercedes got a big headstart, Put all the pieces of the puzzle in place (get Hamilton on board, form a team with great staff Etc. Etc.). Exactly how long, nobody knows. Probably never will until books are being published and then still will be disputed. F1 is politics. FIA wanted Mercedes in, a viable opponent for Ferrari. And Mercedes wanted in but for the win. that is very clear to me.

For them winning is even more important then for a top end sportscar manufacturer. For Ferrari just always having been there, the heritage, the struggle these last years, add to the myth that is the brand already. Ofcourse they aim to win but Their management will not pull out as Merc might should they not have been able to win.

In any case, this is the AMR Honda thread and for sure Merc had a headstart on Honda. And then they went size zero with just 2 cars worth of data at first (I understand why) so that Honda still has to catch up is not weird.

And neither is it impossible. I think they thought they would over the winter but it seems Merc has made a very big step. Something I certainly have some purple unicorn datapoints for in my head.

I think right now there is a tug of war behind the screens that we hear nothing of. We just see some of the results.

I mean, talking legal upgrades, and legitimate gains, Honda made some beautiful steps last season. From the horrible qualifying in Australia to winning in Austria, it certainly seemed like GP2 to GP1 kinda gains. And with all TD's following Ferrari's "interesting" engine, they are still up there, just goes to show, the quality and the technological prowess. I mean, the Mercs have had what? Over a decade of experience and so much money that they could sustain 3 midfield teams and still come second. The compete with that within two years is utterly impressive.

Yes, fully agree. Ofcourse the RB15 also needed a lot of finetuning. And considering Honda board has been on edge if they should and would continue that is even more impressive I think.

[mafeotul]

They went back to the first PU. Marko explained they saw some anomalies in the data after saturday. To me that sounds as an excuse for FIA allowing them to revert to the older unit. The older unit has more mileage so likely Honda would not allow full power on it. Could very well be.

On this track you cannot overtake, certainly not on the straight against high power mode mercedes. I think they want to save the fresher PU for races they have a better chance.

To be complete fair, i was not expecting a 25 second deficit, that pincer movement at the beginning of the GP really murdered Max's tyres. I think that surprised my the most to be completely fair. How poor Max's tyres were following Silverstone 2. Seems legitimate, for now i think everyone will need to save their engines for Spa and onward since the'll run it higher through race.

[Sieper]

Yes, as soon as Bottas closed in and Max had to go into the slipstream Of Lewis for what 11 laps, a challenge on Hamilton was out of the question. Tires gone. I spent some time in fear Bottas would even get him.

[Big Tea]

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5F6057DC

Because Montezemolo said, Lauda said so...

So now Montezemolo and the late Niki Lauda are liars?

The problem is, there is no way to know, in what context Niki said anything to Monty. It was Monty who got fed up with aero dominated rules era and was pushing hard for F1 to move to Engine based, mechanically dominated formula. Ferrari were losing big time to Red Bull due RB's aero superiority. When he saw his team failed to capitalize on the new engine formula, he was out their giving excuses like any layman on the internet forums, saying Niki told him that Mercedes was working on 2014 Hybrid engines from 2007!

This article is from November 6, 2011.
http://en.espn.co.uk/ferrari/motorsport ... 63529.html

Montezemolo said on the official Ferrari website that it will only continue racing if changes to the rules are made, saying the current dependency on aerodynamics does not translate well to the company's road car section.

"What is not so good is that 90% of performance is now based exclusively on aerodynamics and another negative is that ours is the only sport where no testing is allowed. We are building cars, not helicopters, rockets or planes. Sure, we must not go back to the excesses of a few years ago, but neither should we be in a position where we can't provide opportunities for the youngsters we are bringing on in the Ferrari Driver Academy."

2007 was the second year of V8s and any man with a bit of brain, can't fathom a manufacturer (Mercedes) looking ahead for 2014, when they have just released a new engine and are in contention with their partner F1 team (McLaren) to contest for the titles. Mercedes didn't even intend to have an F1 team of their own back then! Why would Ron Dennis ask them or let them to focus on 2014, when he was their factory partner, desperate to win a title, which McLaren Mercedes hadn't won since 1998/99 (WCC/WDC)?

It was only in late 2009 that Norbert Haug persuaded Daimler board to buy Brawn GP, which was a small investment and together with Brawn, they pushed for RRA (Resource Restriction Agreement). Until 2012, Brawn believed that FIA will impose RRA and kept working with small budget, but then when Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren never agreed for RRA, he then convinced Daimler board to infuse more funds to achieve success.

That's when the big time hiring started and that is when Andy Cowell was given the full responsibility on HPP side with a push to build the new turbo hybrid engines with big bets on 2014. Brawn then hired Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Mark Elliott and Aldo Costa and was mocked by the F1 that, he is taking too many cooks. Actually, the foundation for the hybrid era success was all laid in 2012, when the team was going through their toughest phase on track. Incomes Niki Lauda as a share holder, who then pushed for Hamilton's hiring, in 2012!

It's like saying, since 2017, Renault has been working on building new engines for 2025, without even knowing what would be the need for that formula. In 2007, there wasn't even a thought given for 2009 KERS.

Here's is an eye opener for you.

This article is from Oct 08, 2010.
https://www.motor1.com/news/24176/engin ... yond-2012/

F1's engine makers are banding together against the FIA's plans to introduce a radically new engine formula in 2013.

It was previously believed the bulk of the teams backed the plans for turbocharged 1.6 litre 4-cylinder engines, in accordance with a 'greener' image.

But the sport's engine makers Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth have now come to the conclusion that Jean Todt's plans will cost EUR100 million to develop, and are lobbying to be able to base the new formula on the existing V8 engines.

Thank you. well researched and plenty to read from those links

[godlameroso]

Do you remember when I said Red Bull would be within .2 of Mercedes based on testing? Everyone thought I was nuts, that I was wrong, that I should be disrespected for my views, etc. But the data says I was right. Verstappen is within .2 in race pace.

What does the data say now? 66x0.2 ≠ 25 seconds eh? That too with pace to spare easily from the lead Mercedes?

24.177/66 = ~.366

No pace to spare for Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Verstappen did the same amount of pit stops, there were no safety cars, this is the true gap at the moment. It can vary from circuit to circuit depending on the circumstances. Red Bull has made a small gain on Mercedes, hopefully they can keep chipping away.

The pace gap from Bottas to Hamilton is roughly .2 - .3 per lap. The difference is enough for Verstappen to consistently beat Bottas. I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

[Wynters]

No pace to spare for Hamilton.

It'd be useful to know that, despite being 24 seconds ahead, Mercedes were pushing as fast as they could for the entire race. Could you share your evidence, please? Also, why did Verstappen let Hamilton regain the 4+ seconds Hamilton lost in pit stops?

I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

How much of the c. .5 of a second gap between them do you feel they need to chip away? Because I think the situation is worse that that.

1) Bear in mind that the .5 is purely race pace, Mercedes lead is significantly larger in qualifying so it's very likely that Hamilton will consistently out qualify Verstappen.
2) This means that Verstappen will need enough race pace to overcome being forced to run in Hamilton's dirty air for at least the first stint, if not more.
3) On many tracks, the overtaking delta is more than a second.

Therefore, to be confident Verstappen would be able to consistently over come that, what evidence can you share that Verstappen has a second in hand on Hamilton, purely on skill, knowledge and experience alone?

[Big Tea]

Do you remember when I said Red Bull would be within .2 of Mercedes based on testing? Everyone thought I was nuts, that I was wrong, that I should be disrespected for my views, etc. But the data says I was right. Verstappen is within .2 in race pace.

What does the data say now? 66x0.2 ≠ 25 seconds eh? That too with pace to spare easily from the lead Mercedes?

24.177/66 = ~.366

No pace to spare for Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Verstappen did the same amount of pit stops, there were no safety cars, this is the true gap at the moment. It can vary from circuit to circuit depending on the circumstances. Red Bull has made a small gain on Mercedes, hopefully they can keep chipping away.

The pace gap from Bottas to Hamilton is roughly .2 - .3 per lap. The difference is enough for Verstappen to consistently beat Bottas. I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

Was there not a radio com from Max/team allong the lines of 'you are doing well Max, and the reply was- yeh, he is going very slowly' Had he bombed off into the distance it may not have been the same gap. Or there could have been a safety and they ended up close and Lewis tyres shot.

[dans79]

What does the data say now? 66x0.2 ≠ 25 seconds eh? That too with pace to spare easily from the lead Mercedes?

24.177/66 = ~.366

No pace to spare for Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Verstappen did the same amount of pit stops, there were no safety cars, this is the true gap at the moment. It can vary from circuit to circuit depending on the circumstances. Red Bull has made a small gain on Mercedes, hopefully they can keep chipping away.

The pace gap from Bottas to Hamilton is roughly .2 - .3 per lap. The difference is enough for Verstappen to consistently beat Bottas. I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

Was there not a radio com from Max/team allong the lines of 'you are doing well Max, and the reply was- yeh, he is going very slowly' Had he bombed off into the distance it may not have been the same gap. Or there could have been a safety and they ended up close and Lewis tyres shot.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... rix-report

“Gap is beginning to close a little on Lewis,” said Verstappen’s engineer on lap five.

“Yeah I know, but he is just driving super slow,” came the reply.

“The start was OK and I could get into the tow of Lewis so I could get by Valtteri into Turn One,” Verstappen explained. “I tried to follow Lewis a bit, initially he was just managing tyres so I tried to back out of it as well but of course then Valtteri was back into P3 so you can’t drop back too much.

“Then as soon as Lewis started to push a bit more I just couldn’t follow the same pace and he just drove off. From then onwards I tried to do my own pace and do the fastest strategy we could do to try and stay ahead of Valtteri. That worked out quite well today, I’m very happy with that. We split the two Mercedes cars again so I don’t think there is much more I can do at the moment.”