Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[bigblue]

Another interesting aspect of what's being reported are quotes like the following,

Honda had only retained about 30% of its original world championship-winning staff going into the project

(from The Washington Post)

and

"They re-entered with, let's say, only, I'm guessing, 30% of their original base staff and now in a budget cap era

(from the BBC).

The former makes it sound like a statement of fact (minus a little approximation), and the latter says it's a guess, and could be read to mean it's entirely speculation. Inevitably that 30% figure is going to take on the aura of fact over time, but it's really hard to know whether that's an informed figure or not.

[diffuser]

Another interesting aspect of what's being reported are quotes like the following,

Honda had only retained about 30% of its original world championship-winning staff going into the project

(from The Washington Post)

and

"They re-entered with, let's say, only, I'm guessing, 30% of their original base staff and now in a budget cap era

(from the BBC).

The former makes it sound like a statement of fact (minus a little approximation), and the latter says it's a guess, and could be read to mean it's entirely speculation. Inevitably that 30% figure is going to take on the aura of fact over time, but it's really hard to know whether that's an informed figure or not.

That quote is from the 3 TPs interview by F1. Newey actually used the words "I'm guessing". The way I interpreted that was "I haven't seen real data on this. This is just from what we saw when we went to Japan".

[Craigy]

Point of order on symmetry.
Gears don't need to be circular, they can be oval, still mesh and still work off the same sorts of shafts circular gears work off.
In such an arrangement, torque/speed would look like a waveform instead of a straight line on a graph, and this could be used for several reasons.
For example to overcome certain types of pulsed input from things like electric motors, or to allow breakthrough torque where a linear approach is insufficient.

TL;DR don't assume symmetry just because it's normal.

Okay. Can you refer to an actual automotive application of such wacky gears?

Page 6 of https://content.datarunners.net/content/SSP/820333.pdf has an ovalised timing gear on a common car engine (VW EA211 family), used in order to phase torque as we've been discussing.

[Farnborough]

Point of order on symmetry.
Gears don't need to be circular, they can be oval, still mesh and still work off the same sorts of shafts circular gears work off.
In such an arrangement, torque/speed would look like a waveform instead of a straight line on a graph, and this could be used for several reasons.
For example to overcome certain types of pulsed input from things like electric motors, or to allow breakthrough torque where a linear approach is insufficient.

TL;DR don't assume symmetry just because it's normal.

Okay. Can you refer to an actual automotive application of such wacky gears?

Page 6 of https://content.datarunners.net/content/SSP/820333.pdf has an ovalised timing gear on a common car engine (VW EA211 family), used in order to phase torque as we've been discussing.

Thats not a "gear" as is common within this F1 drive architecture, but the crankshaft drive toothed pulley for rubber based cam belt system.
Ultimately it reduces torque input that the belt is conventionally used to absorb (one of these belt principle attributes) also reduction of tooth form nose to nose interaction that could compromise the belt structure, that leading to failure.

Its also intrinsically "timed" to both drive and driven components (stays in register when in use) and so can be part of that train.

In the conventional transmission sense (crankshaft out to final drive) then synchronisation doesn't usually exist, and is "dismantled" by having the clutch between the two.

Timed systems exist in both camshaft drive & MGU-K drive, but both lack the elasticity of that rubber belt drive. It would be significantly more complex, by some degree, to facilitate that between crank and MGU-K.

[mzso]

Another interesting aspect of what's being reported are quotes like the following,

Honda had only retained about 30% of its original world championship-winning staff going into the project

(from The Washington Post)

and

"They re-entered with, let's say, only, I'm guessing, 30% of their original base staff and now in a budget cap era

(from the BBC).

The former makes it sound like a statement of fact (minus a little approximation), and the latter says it's a guess, and could be read to mean it's entirely speculation. Inevitably that 30% figure is going to take on the aura of fact over time, but it's really hard to know whether that's an informed figure or not.

That's journalism. I think both originates from the Newey interview previously linked.

Satoshi Tsunoda is the one who says "almost everything changed".

https://i.postimg.cc/v83xzMhs/image.png

Is this grandprix.com a reliable site then?

(By the way how come it is dark for you? For me it's eyescorching black on white)

[Tommy Cookers]

resonance is only a vibration response bigger than the forced vibration response
ie resonance can occur without even a complete forcing cycle
(consider a spring balance or NASA's Challenger nonsense and Airbus Queens NY crash lies) ....

Why add wacky conspiracy theories? The airbus lost its rudder because the pilot kept stomping the pedals and over-stressed it. The challenger got destroyed because of flawed sealings that got rigid in the cold.

there's no conspiracy theories in my posts

Airbus lost its rudder because it could be overloaded (though their USP was that it couldn't be overloaded)
ie time-varying load(s) not exceeding eg 1 ton could produce a deflection corresponding to a steady load of over 1 ton
ie Airbus designers made the 'spring balance' mistake (as if 1 kg weight can only cause a reading of 1 kg)

the Space Shuttle booster pack was designed to deflect eg 1' at full thrust - and the gantry positioned to clear that
but ramping the thrust to full produced eg a deflection of 2' - and so the booster fouled the gantry on many launches
in (disaster) investigation proceedings NASA implied this was a new thing - and named it structural 'dynamic overshoot'
actually it was the 'spring balance' mistake (forgetting that 1kg weight can cause a temporary reading up to 2 kg)

yes I only found one analysis of the spring balance (years before either case)
yes it seems to be absent from the textbooks in modern times

force and deflection (though related) are not equivalent

(valve springs 'surge' is another example)

[mzso]

resonance is only a vibration response bigger than the forced vibration response
ie resonance can occur without even a complete forcing cycle
(consider a spring balance or NASA's Challenger nonsense and Airbus Queens NY crash lies) ....

Why add wacky conspiracy theories? The airbus lost its rudder because the pilot kept stomping the pedals and over-stressed it. The challenger got destroyed because of flawed sealings that got rigid in the cold.

there's no conspiracy theories in my posts

Airbus lost its rudder because it could be overloaded (though their USP was that it couldn't be overloaded)
ie time-varying load(s) not exceeding eg 1 ton could produce a deflection corresponding to a steady load of over 1 ton
ie Airbus designers made the 'spring balance' mistake (as if 1 kg weight can only cause a reading of 1 kg)

the Space Shuttle booster pack was designed to deflect eg 1' at full thrust - and the gantry positioned to clear that
but ramping the thrust to full produced eg a deflection of 2' - and so the booster fouled the gantry on many launches
in the (disaster) investigation proceedings NASA implied this was a new thing - and named it 'structural overshoot'
actually it was the 'spring balance' mistake (forgetting that 1kg weight can cause a temporary reading up to 2 kg)

yes I only found one analysis of the spring balance (years before either case)
yes it seems to be absent from the textbooks in modern times

force and deflection (though related) are not equivalent

(valve springs 'surge' is another example)

Not that I want to argue about crackpot theories, but what do you mean by gantry, and how do you mean it's relevant to the disaster?

[MIKEY_!]

Given the different engine architecture it would be far from "easy" to bolt the engine into the AMR25. Doable, but not "easy".

Even if Newey is 100% right and all blame lies with honda (which is unlikely), this kind of public dressing down and blame game is not how you manage a supplier relationship. Especially a Japanese supplier. This is "How to lose friends and alienate people" 101. Newey is about to learn the difference between being a good technical director and being a good team principal.

FFS everyone has to make like 3-4 leaps of logic.
He wasn't even using any harsh words. Plus he may know exactly where and how the vibration comes from. So he is entirely justified in using a matter of fact wording.
Plus as he said, the composite chassis is very rigid, so it transmits vibrations. What do you expect AM to do, make a pliable soft chassis?
If it's strong enough to maker drivers hands numb at the steering wheel, it can only be the ICE producing massive vibrations. No amount of positioning will make that go away.

There are no leaps of logic in my comment - but there are in yours. Newey being right about source of the vibrations (he almost certainly is right about that) doesn't absolve AM of all responsibility since based on publicly available info the late chassis-PU integration is AM's fault and that's almost certainly part of why Honda's issue wasn't discovered until too late. Nor does Newey being right about the source of the vibrations make it a good idea to publicly dump on a technical partner. No one said Newey used any harsh words. No one expects a "pliable soft chassis". No one expects "positioning" to make the vibrations go away. This isn't about being "right". It's about using good leadership and soft skills to achieve technical results. Anyway, this is getting off topic, so I'll leave it there. People either understand this stuff or they don't.

[mzso]

There are no leaps of logic in my comment - but there are in yours. Newey being right about source of the vibrations (he almost certainly is right about that) doesn't absolve AM of all responsibility since based on publicly available info the late chassis-PU integration is AM's fault and that's almost certainly part of why Honda's issue wasn't discovered until too late. Nor does Newey being right about the source of the vibrations make it a good idea to publicly dump on a technical partner. No one said Newey used any harsh words. No one expects a "pliable soft chassis". No one expects "positioning" to make the vibrations go away. This isn't about being "right". It's about using good leadership and soft skills to achieve technical results. Anyway, this is getting off topic, so I'll leave it there. People either understand this stuff or they don't.

I'm doubtful of that now. Since apparently Honda is so much behind with development I doubt there was an engine earlier for the chassis. They had to do develop the engine as long as possible.
People talk like being honest is some sort of crime. He was open about the facts and that's that. It's not dumping on Honda, Honda dumped on themselves a steamer by the looks of it. Not BS-ing should be appreciated.

[diffuser]

There are no leaps of logic in my comment - but there are in yours. Newey being right about source of the vibrations (he almost certainly is right about that) doesn't absolve AM of all responsibility since based on publicly available info the late chassis-PU integration is AM's fault and that's almost certainly part of why Honda's issue wasn't discovered until too late. Nor does Newey being right about the source of the vibrations make it a good idea to publicly dump on a technical partner. No one said Newey used any harsh words. No one expects a "pliable soft chassis". No one expects "positioning" to make the vibrations go away. This isn't about being "right". It's about using good leadership and soft skills to achieve technical results. Anyway, this is getting off topic, so I'll leave it there. People either understand this stuff or they don't.

I'm doubtful of that now. Since apparently Honda is so much behind with development I doubt there was an engine earlier for the chassis. They had to do develop the engine as long as possible.
People talk like being honest is some sort of crime. He was open about the facts and that's that. It's not dumping on Honda, Honda dumped on themselves a steamer by the looks of it. Not BS-ing should be appreciated.

I like what you said here. I feel like that as well. He's not evil cause he's the barrer of bad news. I feel he's not very emotional when he speaks, just very factual. Don't shoot the messages.

[ispano6]

Another interesting aspect of what's being reported are quotes like the following,

Honda had only retained about 30% of its original world championship-winning staff going into the project

(from The Washington Post)

and

"They re-entered with, let's say, only, I'm guessing, 30% of their original base staff and now in a budget cap era

(from the BBC).

The former makes it sound like a statement of fact (minus a little approximation), and the latter says it's a guess, and could be read to mean it's entirely speculation. Inevitably that 30% figure is going to take on the aura of fact over time, but it's really hard to know whether that's an informed figure or not.

That's journalism. I think both originates from the Newey interview previously linked.

Satoshi Tsunoda is the one who says "almost everything changed".

https://i.postimg.cc/v83xzMhs/image.png

Is this grandprix.com a reliable site then?

(By the way how come it is dark for you? For me it's eyescorching black on white)

It's a poorly translated article quoting a Japanese source and has flawed translation.

There is no such person as Satoshi Tsunoda. His real name is Tetsushi Kakuda. The translation service the lazy article writer used doesn't know how to read kanji in the alternate way. You'd have to be Japanese to know this fact. If you want some factual quote from a Japanese Honda personnel I suggest you look only at Honda's HRC website. Everything else is BS.

[mzso]

It's a poorly translated article quoting a Japanese source and has flawed translation.

There is no such person as Satoshi Tsunoda. His real name is Tetsushi Kakuda. The translation service the lazy article writer used doesn't know how to read kanji in the alternate way. You'd have to be Japanese to know this fact. If you want some factual quote from a Japanese Honda personnel I suggest you look only at Honda's HRC website. Everything else is BS.

Well, the thejudge13.com seemed even worse.
Are the statements quoted there correct in meaning at least?

I suggest you look only at Honda's HRC website.

Which would that be? Honda has a bunch of websites. The first result thrown up is https://www.hondaracingcorporation.com/ which only has motorbikes.

[ispano6]

Are the statements quoted there correct in meaning at least?
...
Which would that be? Honda has a bunch of websites. The first result thrown up is https://www.hondaracingcorporation.com/ which only has motorbikes.

Nope, I don't bother with misinterpreted lazily translated statements or Western publications that paint a false narrative for the sake of clickbait ad impression revenue.

So you only look at the first result and stop digging further?

Maybe you ought to follow my example and go through my past posts to see what sources I have been quoting.

[bigblue]

Go on then, I'll make the HRC one easy, https://honda.racing/f1, not that there's a whole lot there at the moment.

[mzso]

Go on then, I'll make the HRC one easy, https://honda.racing/f1, not that there's a whole lot there at the moment.

Yeah. There's virtually nothing there apart from the PU reveal. Well, nothingness can't set a false narrative...