Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
User avatar
atanatizante
115
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 15:33

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

zibby43 wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 05:58
...
I'm not sure. Maybe someone with more knowledge than me on that topic could chime in. Someone once said that, due to the power curve of the hybrid turbo engines being so wide and flat (compared to the previous naturally aspirated engines), the gearing is not as critical to performance, and accordingly, as a cost-cutting measure, they decided on fixed ratios for the season back when the new PU regs were introduced.

In Sochi, the Mercs weren't far off the Ferraris in terms of overall top speed. The big difference has been the Ferrari's rate of acceleration, which rockets them to that top speed very quickly, allowing them to achieve it quicker and maintain it for longer.

The Ferraris rate of acceleration on the straights is downright extraordinary. Any talk of a new, clever way to burn oil via unregulated ICE components seems like a big red herring. It wouldn't make sense to deploy a tactic like that only on straights, either. It has to be a clever deployment trick. It's interesting that Ferrari have had CE-related failures this year.

Apparently, it was an electrical insulation failure of the ERS system that led to Vettel's retirement in Sochi.
This subject was spotted since Germany 2018 and lengthly discussed in last year`s Ferrari PU thread ...
Back then they could see that Ferraris car was accelerating faster after ~ 250km/h and things were looking even brighter this year after we saw VET vs. HAM qualy lap in Canada, now they starting that just after some 235km/h ...

Nonetheless, we should realise that Ferrari has this advantage partly down to PU but also to their car low drag philosophy which btw it started back from 2018 and I`ll be interesting to know what part do the most, percentage-wise.

Now regarding the PU side, there are many factors to take into consideration.
First and foremost, seeing that Merc where almost every race in pole or just in the front row, I think they have started with the philosophy saying that position is king in order to win a race, thus heading for a qualy car rather than designing a car which is fastest in the race. This led to their low drag philosophy and we should bear in mind that a lower drag car needs a slightly weaker PU than a draggy car-like W10. Furthermore, they need also to be quick on the straights but not due to topping the speed traps: their goal was to reach sooner and stay longer on that particular top speed! And that`s the real deal!

There are many speculations regarding how they could do that.
Some said they have a particular torque at that speeds which are helping them in that acceleration phase. In contrast, Merc is always developing PU torques that are in line with their car and PU philosophy which is fuel-efficient more than Ferraris one, many teams saying that Merc car always is under fuelled and also Merc drivers almost never complaining about fuel saving in the race. In addition, they Merc power and torque curves are further developed in order to give them more traction in low-speed corners, thus in the lower rpm range.

Then there are other speculations regarding the 4MJ/lap deployment. At this matter some said Ferrari can go for the entire lap (not just for 33.3 sec) with MGU-K at full 120kW power allowed by the rules, something that Merc and other teams are struggling to do. This could be done only via MGU-H to MGU-K which is unlimited by the rules. And this could be the differentiator factor with Ferraris one being the best/powerfull from all. Then they could prioritise their PU and ERS mapping for the straights.

And last but not least the so-called "black magic" that is the fuel formula, which is responsible for the big gains in the ICE area now that all manufacturers are driven by the low of diminishing returns. This fuel and lubs matter is very often superficially overlooked and I fully understand why: F1 is a mechanical rather than a chemical/chemistry sport, thus there`s a very small percentage of knowledge on this forum and hardly could get one any chemical engineer background here :mrgreen:
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

zibby43
zibby43
613
Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

atanatizante wrote:
06 Oct 2019, 15:57
zibby43 wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 05:58
...
I'm not sure. Maybe someone with more knowledge than me on that topic could chime in. Someone once said that, due to the power curve of the hybrid turbo engines being so wide and flat (compared to the previous naturally aspirated engines), the gearing is not as critical to performance, and accordingly, as a cost-cutting measure, they decided on fixed ratios for the season back when the new PU regs were introduced.

In Sochi, the Mercs weren't far off the Ferraris in terms of overall top speed. The big difference has been the Ferrari's rate of acceleration, which rockets them to that top speed very quickly, allowing them to achieve it quicker and maintain it for longer.

The Ferraris rate of acceleration on the straights is downright extraordinary. Any talk of a new, clever way to burn oil via unregulated ICE components seems like a big red herring. It wouldn't make sense to deploy a tactic like that only on straights, either. It has to be a clever deployment trick. It's interesting that Ferrari have had CE-related failures this year.

Apparently, it was an electrical insulation failure of the ERS system that led to Vettel's retirement in Sochi.
This subject was spotted since Germany 2018 and lengthly discussed in last year`s Ferrari PU thread ...
Back then they could see that Ferraris car was accelerating faster after ~ 250km/h and things were looking even brighter this year after we saw VET vs. HAM qualy lap in Canada, now they starting that just after some 235km/h ...

Nonetheless, we should realise that Ferrari has this advantage partly down to PU but also to their car low drag philosophy which btw it started back from 2018 and I`ll be interesting to know what part do the most, percentage-wise.

Now regarding the PU side, there are many factors to take into consideration.
First and foremost, seeing that Merc where almost every race in pole or just in the front row, I think they have started with the philosophy saying that position is king in order to win a race, thus heading for a qualy car rather than designing a car which is fastest in the race. This led to their low drag philosophy and we should bear in mind that a lower drag car needs a slightly weaker PU than a draggy car-like W10. Furthermore, they need also to be quick on the straights but not due to topping the speed traps: their goal was to reach sooner and stay longer on that particular top speed! And that`s the real deal!

There are many speculations regarding how they could do that.
Some said they have a particular torque at that speeds which are helping them in that acceleration phase. In contrast, Merc is always developing PU torques that are in line with their car and PU philosophy which is fuel-efficient more than Ferraris one, many teams saying that Merc car always is under fuelled and also Merc drivers almost never complaining about fuel saving in the race. In addition, they Merc power and torque curves are further developed in order to give them more traction in low-speed corners, thus in the lower rpm range.

Then there are other speculations regarding the 4MJ/lap deployment. At this matter some said Ferrari can go for the entire lap (not just for 33.3 sec) with MGU-K at full 120kW power allowed by the rules, something that Merc and other teams are struggling to do. This could be done only via MGU-H to MGU-K which is unlimited by the rules. And this could be the differentiator factor with Ferraris one being the best/powerfull from all. Then they could prioritise their PU and ERS mapping for the straights.

And last but not least the so-called "black magic" that is the fuel formula, which is responsible for the big gains in the ICE area now that all manufacturers are driven by the low of diminishing returns. This fuel and lubs matter is very often superficially overlooked and I fully understand why: F1 is a mechanical rather than a chemical/chemistry sport, thus there`s a very small percentage of knowledge on this forum and hardly could get one any chemical engineer background here :mrgreen:
Completely agree re: the fuel/lubricants. They're definitely in the "low-hanging fruit" category of PU performance gains these days.

With respect to the PU, I heard somewhere (think it may have been SomersF1) that Merc have been forced to run the Spec 3 PUs in lower modes under race conditions due to reliability concerns.

ajdavison2
ajdavison2
30
Joined: 08 Dec 2010, 12:41

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

Fun little tool on the f1 website for a 3D look around the W10 (early spec I think). https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... zQ4ys.html

User avatar
_cerber1
261
Joined: 18 Jan 2019, 21:50
Location: From Russia with love

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post


zibby43
zibby43
613
Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

Comparison shot (old vs. new):

Image

Image

User avatar
Sierra117
23
Joined: 08 Oct 2017, 10:19
Location: New Zealand

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

Gotta say that looks so weird lol. Like something from a Transformers film.
NIKI LAUDANZ SolidarityCubolligraphy | Instagram | Facebook
#Aerogorn & #Flowramir

zibby43
zibby43
613
Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

Sierra117 wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 08:53
Gotta say that looks so weird lol. Like something from a Transformers film.
This area of the car is ripe for development. Merc's update to this area in Barcelona yielded them nearly 3 tenths, per Mercedes' engineers. I don't think they were 100% satisfied with the modifications made in Germany; supposedly the changes there made the car better in race trim, but harder to set up over the course of a single lap.

Image

izzy
izzy
41
Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

Shots of the bargeboards always make me wish I could see it in 3D! Teams should have to show us imo :).

It must be such a process designing them, for them to keep changing so much, as though they're always still wrong after all but brilliant at the same time

LM10
LM10
121
Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

That's a pretty major bargeboard upgrade. Turns out they didn't (totally) shift their resources to next season yet. This isn't a reaction to Ferrari's recent form as it surely took longer than 2.5 weeks (time since Singapore when Ferrari upgraded their car) to make this upgrade ready.

User avatar
F1Krof
94
Joined: 22 Feb 2016, 21:17

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

LM10 wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 18:06
That's a pretty major bargeboard upgrade. Turns out they didn't (totally) shift their resources to next season yet. This isn't a reaction to Ferrari's recent form as it surely took longer than 2.5 weeks (time since Singapore when Ferrari upgraded their car) to make this upgrade ready.
I wouldn't say major. It's a 'meh' update as far as I can see it.
Wroom wroom

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

team principles have been overplaying the small/major/minor updates line far to much lately. The 2020 rules are basically identical to what we have now.

Thus this is just an update that will be carried forward that doesn't require major changes in other areas of the car.
201 105 104 9 9 7

zibby43
zibby43
613
Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

LM10 wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 18:06
That's a pretty major bargeboard upgrade. Turns out they didn't (totally) shift their resources to next season yet. This isn't a reaction to Ferrari's recent form as it surely took longer than 2.5 weeks (time since Singapore when Ferrari upgraded their car) to make this upgrade ready.
I agree. The removal of that top vane alone has to cut a lot of drag.

I'm assuming there will be some additional minor changes both ahead of and behind this area to account for how the air is being worked differently in that area. Will have to wait until we see the entire car.

matt_b
matt_b
2
Joined: 11 Jul 2012, 12:03

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

Anything that can be transferred to next years car is worth bringing and this looks like quite a decent upgrade, so they're working hard.

zibby43
zibby43
613
Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post

matt_b wrote:
09 Oct 2019, 20:06
Anything that can be transferred to next years car is worth bringing and this looks like quite a decent upgrade, so they're working hard.
Has to be tricky balancing 2020 and 2021 right now.

Image

zibby43
zibby43
613
Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

Post