BBC: F1's Greatest Driver

[SchumiSutil]

really amazing how he managed to clear everyone by 30 seconds when Senna behind had gearbox problems and eased of.

He was able to recover and pass Senna before Senna gearbox problem.

Prost/Senna is like Hamilton/Button
It´s actually a bit scary seeing the similarities between the four guys.

Sorry, nothing against Button, but comparing him to Prost is huge insult against Prost.

but it still doesn´t detract from the fact that he completely destroyed him.

Not really. It was 1-1 in championship when they were teammates, and in 1990 it was such a hard fight that it ended as we all know. Not a "complete destroy". Very, very far.

Beaten by Niki Lauda as well.

And beaten by Senna because only the 11 best results counted towards the championship.

Sorry for Lauda. Lauda was hugely lucky that year.
Yes the 11 best results counted. Given the fact they had 5 DNF on 32 starts (a very good reliability ration for that era), the new system should have been applied already.

[Nando]

really amazing how he managed to clear everyone by 30 seconds when Senna behind had gearbox problems and eased of.

He was able to recover and pass Senna before Senna gearbox problem.

Prost/Senna is like Hamilton/Button
It´s actually a bit scary seeing the similarities between the four guys.

Sorry, nothing against Button, but comparing him to Prost is huge insult against Prost.

but it still doesn´t detract from the fact that he completely destroyed him.

Not really. It was 1-1 in championship when they were teammates, and in 1990 it was such a hard fight that it ended as we all know. Not a "complete destroy". Very, very far.

1. Still it wasn´t anywhere near as impressive as what we have seen from Senna. Not even close.

2. It´s not actually. If you were to compare Button´s way of racing it would be compared to Prost.
He´s a thinker, just like Prost.
Sure he does not have 5 titles etc but that is irrelevant here.

3. Now you took it out of context. We were talking about Qualifying, and i said he completely destroyed him.

You took that text and added it to the amount of championships they had when in Mclaren.

[Nando]

Also seems to be people that think because you choose Senna you are hating on Prost.

How i would describe it:

Prost - extremely good driver
Senna - Unreal

[f1316]

World championships and wins are not some concrete thing that says anything about your skill set.

That is exactly what I said, isn't it? Stats are not going to prove any kind of point, I'm just saying that it surprises me they don't win mor people over.

Qualifying 0.001 faster than your team mate has the same net result as beating them by 1.5s (incidentally, smashing the car into the wall when leading the field by nearly a lap has the same net result as not even turning up - hardly a perfect race weekend) and lapping the whole field is the same as winning by only a tenth. You don't get any more points for it. Fangio liked to win at the slowest speed possible, for example.

I think it goes to prove my point that people like Senna and romanticise his superiority based on stylistic things like these. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with preferring a driver who drove like this, just that it's not the only metric for excellence.

[Nando]

Qualifying 0.001 faster than your team mate has the same net result as beating them by 1.5s (incidentally, smashing the car into the wall when leading the field by nearly a lap has the same net result as not even turning up - hardly a perfect race weekend) and lapping the whole field is the same as winning by only a tenth. You don't get any more points for it. Fangio liked to win at the slowest speed possible, for example.

On a piece of paper or in points this might be true.

Beating your teammate by 1,5s is not anywhere near the same as beating them by 1 tenth.
1 tenth means you were dead on for pretty much the whole lap, maybe half a tires width in difference as they cross the finish line.

1,5s means you can go take a nap while your teammate finishes his lap.
1,5s means you have completely destroyed your teammate.

Sure he took no points from that race in Monaco but we all knew who was the king that day.

[SchumiSutil]

It´s not actually. If you were to compare Button´s way of racing it would be compared to Prost.
He´s a thinker, just like Prost.
Sure he does not have 5 titles etc but that is irrelevant here.

That's relevant. Prost would have not been able to win 4 titles if he was not extremely quick driver. He produces drives that's Button just can dream of.
Prost is not all about his approach to race. It's also his speed. You talk about destroying : he destroyed Rosberg, Lauda, Mansell, Alesi, drivers considered as massively fast.

[FoxHound]

Sorry, I'm mot trying to answer to all your post, but it's slightly more complex than that. I remember long discussions about this...

I gave you facts, that Senna finished ahead of Prost 7 out of the 8 races he finished. Senna also suffered 5 mechanical failures to Prost's 1 in 1989, Prost's supposed revenge year.
I'm not trying to belittle Prost, as I have mentioned he was a great. But some people ask why Senna was so revered...there are very good reasons why people in the know speak of him as the GOAT.

[example]

How can you say Schumaher is technically superior to Senna. He's not even on par with him.

[FoxHound]

Not really. It was 1-1 in championship when they were teammates, and in 1990 it was such a hard fight that it ended as we all know. Not a "complete destroy". Very, very far.

Here are some more facts for you.

In 2 seasons, in races that both completed Prost only managed to beat Senna 6 times. In that time Senna managed to beat Prost 14 times.
Thats a beating of team mate ratio of near 75% in favour of Senna.

We then have Qualifying which is a better indicator of pure speed.
In 2 seasons together and out of 30 qualifying sessions Senna beat Prost 28 times. Prost managed to beat Senna twice.
Yes, twice.

Just the facts.

[megz]

The above stats are similar to Alonso vs. Massa. Is Alonso = Senna then?

[SchumiSutil]

Prost was as well much more often at the end of races. I don't think it's just by luck - in particular Senna crashes out in Monaco and collides Schlesser in Monza in 1988. Besides, you forgot that 1989 was an awful year at Mclaren, Prost decided to leave the team and not Senna. Remember it was very very political - that play a huge part for 1989.

But yes, maybe Prost deserved more the 1988 championship (I read one day that he had a damage car during 4 races - GB, Germany, Hungary, Belgium), and Senna the 1989 that's it.

Nevertheless, it's far closer between them that's pointing out the quali ratio. Prost knew Senna was faster over a single lap. Just another fact : in two years (1990/1991), Berger outqualified Senna 7 times. Never means that Berger was faster than Prost.

[FoxHound]

I cannot agree with that assessment SchumiSutil.

When both drivers finish, Senna is beating Prost 3 times out of 4. This is conclusive evidence to support Senna's superiority over Prost.
In 1988 Prost suffered 1 mechanical failure a misfiring engine in Monza. Senna suffered from McLaren being DQ'd for changing cars between conditions(not driver related at all). So 1 apiece in 88.

In 1989 Senna suffered 5 failures to that of Prosts 1 failure in Canada.

The failures for Senna all occured while he was leading Prost in 1989. I cannot be more clear on this.

[Cam]

It might be easier to simply list YOUR favourite drivers in order, rather than trying to convince others using stats and facts. People like different things for different reasons - one mans trash is another mans treasure. This is a no-win thread.

Instead of trying to convince others with stats, try writing about why a particular driver effects you, why you admire them etc. Talk about it not from a statistical view, but from a fan view. This will arguably give more insights into a particular driver that people could relate too.

[munudeges]

The facts are that Senna was World Champion in 1988 because of the best of 11 scoring system. Taking into account all the results in the season it was Prost who was champion (would have been in any season since) and unfortunately the scoring system is something a driver can do nothing about. In 1989 Prost was champion with a healthy points lead built through cleverness (you don't have that number of mechanical failures through careful driving), regardless of whatever else happened, and 1990....well. In 1994 Prost would have picked up as many safe second places as possible until the inevitable happened and the Williams chassis improved with a far superior V10 engine, would have probably been champion and lived. Brutal, but there it is. Senna's attitude would have got him killed long before he ever got near Formula 1 in Clark or Fangio's era.

Just the facts.

Senna's supposed superiority over Prost and supposed 'destruction' is just a myth built up out of hype, legend status attached to death and an emotional mysticism attached to fast lap times at the expense of results. I expected no less though.

[RB7ate9]

It might be easier to simply list YOUR favourite drivers in order, rather than trying to convince others using stats and facts. People like different things for different reasons - one mans trash is another mans treasure. This is a no-win thread.

Instead of trying to convince others with stats, try writing about why a particular driver effects you, why you admire them etc. Talk about it not from a statistical view, but from a fan view. This will arguably give more insights into a particular driver that people could relate too.

I wrote a few pages back about Jim Clark. He just seemed like a down-to-Earth yet not-of-this-world (yes) driver. He was gentlemanly but not stuck up. He cared more about driving than most anything else. He'd be sort of like a more amiable and friendly (and talkative) Kimi. Also, he died driving in a lower formula because he liked driving. If he was alive today, he'd probably sneak off during the down period between race weekends to do exhibition races or off/on in other series. He, I can imagine, would be a driver that would jump at the chance to race Monaco one weekend, then Le Mans 24 hours the next. Driving was just what. He. Did.

Lastly, purportedly he was really nice to the mechanics and had a great relationship with the engineers. He would help develop solutions whenever there was a problem, but that was spotty in and of itself because he would often simply adapt to any problems with the car rather than raise a fuss!

A genuinely nice character with a talent for hurling aluminum bathtubs of fuel very quickly around barely protected asphalt. Jim Clark.