Mercedes W13

[F1Krof]

Mercedes 2022 is the Ferrari 2021. How tables turn don't they?

[Andi76]

+ Mercedes, obviously. Which is more probable - Mercedes HPP designing a weaker engine, or 4 F1 teams going completely wrong with their designs?

To be honest - the first one clearly. It happened quite often in F1 history, while 4 Teams being completely wrong with their design in that way - never.

It is very possible. For instance the PU design influences the chassis and vice-versa, if McLaren, Williams and Aston were constantly reminded of how compact the engine is and that they should take advantage of that, it might just have influenced them to focus on small side pods! So McLaren and Williams went that route. Aston is a clearly different matter, but they have other issues. If James Allison is to be believed, the Mercedes engine is still near the top of the pack.

It would have been the first time in F1 that 4 teams got their design that wrong. This is only possible if they got wrong data to base their design on. In that case agree it very possible, even logical. So either they got wrong data or they based their design on something wrong. Either way its Mercedes who is to blame i think. Its not a coincident that its only the Mercedes teams who have serious problems.

[Big Tea]

To be honest - the first one clearly. It happened quite often in F1 history, while 4 Teams being completely wrong with their design in that way - never.

It is very possible. For instance the PU design influences the chassis and vice-versa, if McLaren, Williams and Aston were constantly reminded of how compact the engine is and that they should take advantage of that, it might just have influenced them to focus on small side pods! So McLaren and Williams went that route. Aston is a clearly different matter, but they have other issues. If James Allison is to be believed, the Mercedes engine is still near the top of the pack.

It would have been the first time in F1 that 4 teams got their design that wrong. This is only possible if they got wrong data to base their design on. In that case agree it very possible, even logical. So either they got wrong data or they based their design on something wrong. Either way its Mercedes who is to blame i think. Its not a coincident that its only the Mercedes teams who have serious problems.

As I said before, we only see it as 4 teems getting it wrong because 2 are a considerable step in front.
Had RBR and Ferrari been just a couple of % more off the pace, it would be a normal spread and every one would be happy it was not a gaffe, just needing some development.

[SuperCNJ]

One thing that continues to baffle me is that I find it difficult to believe that Mercs PU has suddenly gone from being the most powerful to one of the least powerful and being overtaken by Ferrari and RB in a matter of months.

We all know that the spec and rules around the PU have largely been kept the same since its inception in 2014. And we know the development curve since then has steadily increased for all manufacturers. However, as Merc themselves have admitted, finding significant gains becomes increasingly more difficult as there is nothing much left to squeeze out of it.

So for Ferrari / RB to find massive gains not only compared to an improved 2022 Merc PU in such a short space of time, let alone the gains made when compared to their own 2021 PUs is either super impressive or Merc has gone backwards.

Considering Honda threw everything into the 2021 PU, I really didn't think there was much left to gain in 2022.

I guess the only thing that might have had a bearing on this is if Ferrari/RB have managed to extract more power from the new E10 fuel and Merc perhaps not being able to do so.

Or do we believe this is all down to drag?

[matteosc]

One thing that continues to baffle me is that I find it difficult to believe that Mercs PU has suddenly gone from being the most powerful to one of the least powerful and being overtaken by Ferrari and RB in a matter of months.

We all know that the spec and rules around the PU have largely been kept the same since its inception in 2014. And we know the development curve since then has steadily increased for all manufacturers. However, as Merc themselves have admitted, finding significant gains becomes increasingly more difficult as there is nothing much left to squeeze out of it.

So for Ferrari / RB to find massive gains not only compared to an improved 2022 Merc PU in such a short space of time, let alone the gains made when compared to their own 2021 PUs is either super impressive or Merc has gone backwards.

Considering Honda threw everything into the 2021 PU, I really didn't think there was much left to gain in 2022.

I guess the only thing that might have had a bearing on this is if Ferrari/RB have managed to extract more power from the new E10 fuel and Merc perhaps not being able to do so.

Or do we believe this is all down to drag?

I think Mercedes PU is not that behind Ferrari/Honda/(Renault?), but it did lost its supremacy. I think this is due mostly to E10 fuel, but also on other manufacturer improving more than Mercedes.
For both car and PU my impression is that Mercedes tried to continue what they did for the last 8 years, without really looking at alternatives. I also think that this is partially due to the lack of time and resources that they had in the last two years, because of cap restrictions and the prolonged fight with Red Bull.

[AR3-GP]

One thing that continues to baffle me is that I find it difficult to believe that Mercs PU has suddenly gone from being the most powerful to one of the least powerful and being overtaken by Ferrari and RB in a matter of months.

We all know that the spec and rules around the PU have largely been kept the same since its inception in 2014. And we know the development curve since then has steadily increased for all manufacturers. However, as Merc themselves have admitted, finding significant gains becomes increasingly more difficult as there is nothing much left to squeeze out of it.

So for Ferrari / RB to find massive gains not only compared to an improved 2022 Merc PU in such a short space of time, let alone the gains made when compared to their own 2021 PUs is either super impressive or Merc has gone backwards.

Considering Honda threw everything into the 2021 PU, I really didn't think there was much left to gain in 2022.

I guess the only thing that might have had a bearing on this is if Ferrari/RB have managed to extract more power from the new E10 fuel and Merc perhaps not being able to do so.

Or do we believe this is all down to drag?

I think Mercedes PU is not that behind Ferrari/Honda/(Renault?), but it did lost its supremacy. I think this is due mostly to E10 fuel, but also on other manufacturer improving more than Mercedes.
For both car and PU my impression is that Mercedes tried to continue what they did for the last 8 years, without really looking at alternatives. I also think that this is partially due to the lack of time and resources that they had in the last two years, because of cap restrictions and the prolonged fight with Red Bull.

Power unit has no budget cap.

[NicoS]

One thing that continues to baffle me is that I find it difficult to believe that Mercs PU has suddenly gone from being the most powerful to one of the least powerful and being overtaken by Ferrari and RB in a matter of months.

We all know that the spec and rules around the PU have largely been kept the same since its inception in 2014. And we know the development curve since then has steadily increased for all manufacturers. However, as Merc themselves have admitted, finding significant gains becomes increasingly more difficult as there is nothing much left to squeeze out of it.

So for Ferrari / RB to find massive gains not only compared to an improved 2022 Merc PU in such a short space of time, let alone the gains made when compared to their own 2021 PUs is either super impressive or Merc has gone backwards.

Considering Honda threw everything into the 2021 PU, I really didn't think there was much left to gain in 2022.

I guess the only thing that might have had a bearing on this is if Ferrari/RB have managed to extract more power from the new E10 fuel and Merc perhaps not being able to do so.

Or do we believe this is all down to drag?

I think Mercedes PU is not that behind Ferrari/Honda/(Renault?), but it did lost its supremacy. I think this is due mostly to E10 fuel, but also on other manufacturer improving more than Mercedes.
For both car and PU my impression is that Mercedes tried to continue what they did for the last 8 years, without really looking at alternatives. I also think that this is partially due to the lack of time and resources that they had in the last two years, because of cap restrictions and the prolonged fight with Red Bull.

Power unit has no budget cap.

that's crazy. why not?

[Dee]

One thing that continues to baffle me is that I find it difficult to believe that Mercs PU has suddenly gone from being the most powerful to one of the least powerful and being overtaken by Ferrari and RB in a matter of months.

We all know that the spec and rules around the PU have largely been kept the same since its inception in 2014. And we know the development curve since then has steadily increased for all manufacturers. However, as Merc themselves have admitted, finding significant gains becomes increasingly more difficult as there is nothing much left to squeeze out of it.

So for Ferrari / RB to find massive gains not only compared to an improved 2022 Merc PU in such a short space of time, let alone the gains made when compared to their own 2021 PUs is either super impressive or Merc has gone backwards.

Considering Honda threw everything into the 2021 PU, I really didn't think there was much left to gain in 2022.

I guess the only thing that might have had a bearing on this is if Ferrari/RB have managed to extract more power from the new E10 fuel and Merc perhaps not being able to do so.

Or do we believe this is all down to drag?

As far as I can see, Mercedes spent last year building a special one off engine for Hamilton to use in Brazil, Jeddah and Abu Dhabi

They did not focus on an E10 engine that would be locked in for the next four years

[matteosc]

One thing that continues to baffle me is that I find it difficult to believe that Mercs PU has suddenly gone from being the most powerful to one of the least powerful and being overtaken by Ferrari and RB in a matter of months.

We all know that the spec and rules around the PU have largely been kept the same since its inception in 2014. And we know the development curve since then has steadily increased for all manufacturers. However, as Merc themselves have admitted, finding significant gains becomes increasingly more difficult as there is nothing much left to squeeze out of it.

So for Ferrari / RB to find massive gains not only compared to an improved 2022 Merc PU in such a short space of time, let alone the gains made when compared to their own 2021 PUs is either super impressive or Merc has gone backwards.

Considering Honda threw everything into the 2021 PU, I really didn't think there was much left to gain in 2022.

I guess the only thing that might have had a bearing on this is if Ferrari/RB have managed to extract more power from the new E10 fuel and Merc perhaps not being able to do so.

Or do we believe this is all down to drag?

I think Mercedes PU is not that behind Ferrari/Honda/(Renault?), but it did lost its supremacy. I think this is due mostly to E10 fuel, but also on other manufacturer improving more than Mercedes.
For both car and PU my impression is that Mercedes tried to continue what they did for the last 8 years, without really looking at alternatives. I also think that this is partially due to the lack of time and resources that they had in the last two years, because of cap restrictions and the prolonged fight with Red Bull.

Power unit has no budget cap.

I am not sure that this is true, but even if it was, there are still time constraints since they spent so much time trying to fix reliability issues for last year's PU.

[AR3-GP]

I think Mercedes PU is not that behind Ferrari/Honda/(Renault?), but it did lost its supremacy. I think this is due mostly to E10 fuel, but also on other manufacturer improving more than Mercedes.
For both car and PU my impression is that Mercedes tried to continue what they did for the last 8 years, without really looking at alternatives. I also think that this is partially due to the lack of time and resources that they had in the last two years, because of cap restrictions and the prolonged fight with Red Bull.

Power unit has no budget cap.

I am not sure that this is true, but even if it was, there are still time constraints since they spent so much time trying to fix reliability issues for last year's PU.

There isn't a PU budget cap. Never has been. Teams can spend unlimited budget and man power on it. It's all moot now because engines are frozen.

[Andi76]

It is very possible. For instance the PU design influences the chassis and vice-versa, if McLaren, Williams and Aston were constantly reminded of how compact the engine is and that they should take advantage of that, it might just have influenced them to focus on small side pods! So McLaren and Williams went that route. Aston is a clearly different matter, but they have other issues. If James Allison is to be believed, the Mercedes engine is still near the top of the pack.

It would have been the first time in F1 that 4 teams got their design that wrong. This is only possible if they got wrong data to base their design on. In that case agree it very possible, even logical. So either they got wrong data or they based their design on something wrong. Either way its Mercedes who is to blame i think. Its not a coincident that its only the Mercedes teams who have serious problems.

As I said before, we only see it as 4 teems getting it wrong because 2 are a considerable step in front.
Had RBR and Ferrari been just a couple of % more off the pace, it would be a normal spread and every one would be happy it was not a gaffe, just needing some development.

Not really...if it would be that easy. And tt has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all. No one can seriously deny that all the Mercedes Teams got worse and have serious problems. And all the "not Mercedes"-Teams got better and are doing good. And also if Ferrari and RBR would be just a couple % off the pace, it would not change the fact that all Mercedes Teams got worse and having big problems...also - if it would just be about "some developement"... there already was enough time or "some" developement. And even if it would be just some developement - the other teams are developing, too. And thats why you usually do not have a lot of change in the pecking order throughout a season. So - sorry if i say that, but its not as easy as you say. If would have been the same if you would have said in 2020&2021 Ferrari just needs some developement...

[johndoucakis]

I posted in the RB18 and F1-75 threads similar posts.

Below are captures of excellent work from 3D designer TheoDev on the Sketchfab platform.
I have no connection to the person so any comments you may have, you may try to address them directly to him.
Make sure you mention I gave full credit to him, I am only trying to show to us F1 fans his great work.

I think that 3D designs in this platform are mostly made for video games, but I might be wrong.

Source:
TheoDev
Sketschfab
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/mercede ... 2760f52e15

[Big Tea]

It would have been the first time in F1 that 4 teams got their design that wrong. This is only possible if they got wrong data to base their design on. In that case agree it very possible, even logical. So either they got wrong data or they based their design on something wrong. Either way its Mercedes who is to blame i think. Its not a coincident that its only the Mercedes teams who have serious problems.

As I said before, we only see it as 4 teems getting it wrong because 2 are a considerable step in front.
Had RBR and Ferrari been just a couple of % more off the pace, it would be a normal spread and every one would be happy it was not a gaffe, just needing some development.

Not really...if it would be that easy. And tt has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all. No one can seriously deny that all the Mercedes Teams got worse and have serious problems. And all the "not Mercedes"-Teams got better and are doing good. And also if Ferrari and RBR would be just a couple % off the pace, it would not change the fact that all Mercedes Teams got worse and having big problems...also - if it would just be about "some developement"... there already was enough time or "some" developement. And even if it would be just some developement - the other teams are developing, too. And thats why you usually do not have a lot of change in the pecking order throughout a season. So - sorry if i say that, but its not as easy as you say. If would have been the same if you would have said in 2020&2021 Ferrari just needs some developement...

But you only know the Merc, and others, are not doing well because there are Ferrari and RBR to compare them with.
If they had not found the little extra there would be nothing to say what the 'level' should be. We were told anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds a lap slower than last year, and all cars are well above that.
A comparison, When Merc turned up with that engine well above the others, were the others all bad designs, or the merc a good one? Same with the Brawn, did everyone else have a crap car that year?

[Big Tea]

As I said before, we only see it as 4 teems getting it wrong because 2 are a considerable step in front.
Had RBR and Ferrari been just a couple of % more off the pace, it would be a normal spread and every one would be happy it was not a gaffe, just needing some development.

Not really...it has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari. No one can seriously deny that all the Mercedes Teams got worse and have serious problems. And all the "not Mercedes"-Teams got better and are doing good. And also if Ferrari and RBR would be just a couple % off the pace would not change the fact that all Mercedes Teams got worse...and if it would just be about "some developement" - there was enough time already for some developement. And even if it would be just some developement - the other teams are developing, too. And thats why you usually do not have a lot of change in the pecking order throughout a season.

Mercedes had crazy power at the end of last season. lewis could manage to effortlessly overtake half way down the straights.
I think FIA found something ala Ferrari and forced mercedes to quietly change a "illegal" system.
The sudden loss of power with all MB powered teams are just like it was when Ferrari was caught out and quietly forced to change.

This is very much a possibility, but surely we would get whispers from other teams or the media?
Or maybe it has something to do with the court case being dropped (tight lips all round~)

I thought late last season Merc had rushed something through that was either not ready or not understood because if it was not on the engine then, it could not be done later. Maybe they have found they this 'thing' they were banking on is not going to work and they can not change back.

[Andi76]

As I said before, we only see it as 4 teems getting it wrong because 2 are a considerable step in front.
Had RBR and Ferrari been just a couple of % more off the pace, it would be a normal spread and every one would be happy it was not a gaffe, just needing some development.

Not really...if it would be that easy. And tt has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all. No one can seriously deny that all the Mercedes Teams got worse and have serious problems. And all the "not Mercedes"-Teams got better and are doing good. And also if Ferrari and RBR would be just a couple % off the pace, it would not change the fact that all Mercedes Teams got worse and having big problems...also - if it would just be about "some developement"... there already was enough time or "some" developement. And even if it would be just some developement - the other teams are developing, too. And thats why you usually do not have a lot of change in the pecking order throughout a season. So - sorry if i say that, but its not as easy as you say. If would have been the same if you would have said in 2020&2021 Ferrari just needs some developement...

But you only know the Merc, and others, are not doing well because there are Ferrari and RBR to compare them with.
If they had not found the little extra there would be nothing to say what the 'level' should be. We were told anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds a lap slower than last year, and all cars are well above that.
A comparison, When Merc turned up with that engine well above the others, were the others all bad designs, or the merc a good one? Same with the Brawn, did everyone else have a crap car that year?

What are you trying to prove here? I don't get it....If Ferrari and Red Bull were not there or 0,5 sec. slower- all the Mercedes cars would still doing worse than last year, the Mercedes would be a car porpoising as hell and not be able to win a race...if there wouldn't have been Red Bull and Mercedes in 2020 and 2021, Ferrari would have been World Champion...is that what we are talking about? So Ferrari did a great job last year and in 2020? And all the Ferrari-Customers, too? Sorry but this argumentation is just something i can't follow at all. There always are 1-3 teams who define "the level" and if the others are seconds of their pace- they did a bad job. Thats what F1 is about.