Mercedes W13

[Big Tea]

Not really...if it would be that easy. And tt has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all. No one can seriously deny that all the Mercedes Teams got worse and have serious problems. And all the "not Mercedes"-Teams got better and are doing good. And also if Ferrari and RBR would be just a couple % off the pace, it would not change the fact that all Mercedes Teams got worse and having big problems...also - if it would just be about "some developement"... there already was enough time or "some" developement. And even if it would be just some developement - the other teams are developing, too. And thats why you usually do not have a lot of change in the pecking order throughout a season. So - sorry if i say that, but its not as easy as you say. If would have been the same if you would have said in 2020&2021 Ferrari just needs some developement...

But you only know the Merc, and others, are not doing well because there are Ferrari and RBR to compare them with.
If they had not found the little extra there would be nothing to say what the 'level' should be. We were told anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds a lap slower than last year, and all cars are well above that.
A comparison, When Merc turned up with that engine well above the others, were the others all bad designs, or the merc a good one? Same with the Brawn, did everyone else have a crap car that year?

What are you trying to prove here? I don't get it....If Ferrari and Red Bull were not there or 0,5 sec. slower- all the Mercedes cars would still doing worse than last year, the Mercedes would be a car porpoising as hell and not be able to win a race...if there wouldn't have been Red Bull and Mercedes in 2020 and 2021, Ferrari would have been World Champion...is that what we are talking about? So Ferrari did a great job last year and in 2020? And all the Ferrari-Customers, too? Sorry but this argumentation is just something i can't follow at all.

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

[Andi76]

But you only know the Merc, and others, are not doing well because there are Ferrari and RBR to compare them with.
If they had not found the little extra there would be nothing to say what the 'level' should be. We were told anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds a lap slower than last year, and all cars are well above that.
A comparison, When Merc turned up with that engine well above the others, were the others all bad designs, or the merc a good one? Same with the Brawn, did everyone else have a crap car that year?

What are you trying to prove here? I don't get it....If Ferrari and Red Bull were not there or 0,5 sec. slower- all the Mercedes cars would still doing worse than last year, the Mercedes would be a car porpoising as hell and not be able to win a race...if there wouldn't have been Red Bull and Mercedes in 2020 and 2021, Ferrari would have been World Champion...is that what we are talking about? So Ferrari did a great job last year and in 2020? And all the Ferrari-Customers, too? Sorry but this argumentation is just something i can't follow at all.

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

Understand. So discount Mercedes from 2014 onwards - how does the field look? Discount Red Bull 2010-2013 - how does the field look? Discount Brawn and Red Bull 2009 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren 2007&2008 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and Renault 2006 - how does the field look? Discount Renault and McLaren 2005. Discount Ferrari 2004 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren 2003 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari 2001&2002 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren 1998-2000 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and Williams 1997 - how does the field look? Discount Williams 1996 - how does the field look? Discount Benetton and Williams 1994 and 1995 - how does the field look?

You always have one, two or three teams in F1 who do a better job than others. And they define the "level". And this level defines whats good or bad. To discount the teams who define the level - sorry whats that? And why? These teams showed what is possible. These teams showed what a good work/design/concept means...But anyway - even if you discount Ferrari and Red Bull - all Mercedes Teams would still do worse than they did last year. And Mercedes would still have a car porpoising like hell, fighting with Haas, Alfa and Alpha Tauri....and if all Mercedes Teams fight for P16-20 and Mercedes with Haas - then their cars ARE bad. At least in my book. If your opinion is different - fine. And i think its fair to say this is not a "F1-like" definition then.

[Big Tea]

What are you trying to prove here? I don't get it....If Ferrari and Red Bull were not there or 0,5 sec. slower- all the Mercedes cars would still doing worse than last year, the Mercedes would be a car porpoising as hell and not be able to win a race...if there wouldn't have been Red Bull and Mercedes in 2020 and 2021, Ferrari would have been World Champion...is that what we are talking about? So Ferrari did a great job last year and in 2020? And all the Ferrari-Customers, too? Sorry but this argumentation is just something i can't follow at all.

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

Understand. So discount Mercedes from 2014 onwards - how does the field look? Discount Red Bull from 2010-2013 - how does the field look? Discount Brawn and Red Bull in 2009 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren from 2007&2008 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and Renault from 2006 - how does the field look? Discount Renault and McLaren from 2005. Discount Ferrari from 2004 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren from 2003 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari from 2001&2002 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren from 1998-2000 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and Williams from 1997 - how does the field look? Discount Williams from 1996 - how does the field look? Discount Benetton and Williams from 1994 and 1995 - how does the field look?

You always have one or two teams in F1 who do a better job than others. But you cannot just discount them. Sorry - whats that? Its not only disrespectfull to the ones who really did a great job, its also disrespectfull to everyone in F1 history who did a great job. But anyway - even if you discount Ferrari and Red Bull - all Mercedes Teams would still do worse than they did last year. And Mercedes would still have a car porpoising like hell, fighting with Haas, Alfa and Alpha Tauri....

So you disagree, fine you are allowed to. Dont get so worked up its just a forum.

[matteosc]

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

Even if you "exclude" Ferrari and Red Bull (even though I am not sure of why you would do that) and you consider Mercedes as first team, all other teams are considerably closer than last year. In some case even in front of Mercedes (Hamilton was behind Alpine, McLaren, Alpha Tauri and Haas last race).
At the moment Mercedes is having clear difficulties. Obviously they will improve and fix some very evident issues, but at the moment they did not do an amazing job.

[Big Tea]

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

Even if you "exclude" Ferrari and Red Bull (even though I am not sure of why you would do that) and you consider Mercedes as first team, all other teams are considerably closer than last year. In some case even in front of Mercedes (Hamilton was behind Alpine, McLaren, Alpha Tauri and Haas last race).
At the moment Mercedes is having clear difficulties. Obviously they will improve and fix some very evident issues, but at the moment they did not do an amazing job.

But if Merc had brought a superior engine and blown everyone else into the weeds, would all the others (not using Merc engines) be rubbish, or would it be Merc infront of the curve?

There has been a big change so some are bound to have got it more right than others, and some more wrong.
Its the way of things. in 3 months it may be all change (or it may not )

[matteosc]

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

Even if you "exclude" Ferrari and Red Bull (even though I am not sure of why you would do that) and you consider Mercedes as first team, all other teams are considerably closer than last year. In some case even in front of Mercedes (Hamilton was behind Alpine, McLaren, Alpha Tauri and Haas last race).
At the moment Mercedes is having clear difficulties. Obviously they will improve and fix some very evident issues, but at the moment they did not do an amazing job.

But if Merc had brought a superior engine and blown everyone else into the weeds, would all the others (not using Merc engines) be rubbish, or would it be Merc infront of the curve?

There has been a big change so some are bound to have got it more right than others, and some more wrong.
Its the way of things. in 3 months it may be all change (or it may not )

Struggling to see your point. Mercedes is not only worst than Ferrari and Red Bull at the moment, but it also lost ground to several other teams, which are now very close if not in front.
We still need several races to have a verdict, but at the moment it looks like Mercedes is among the team that got it wrong. They may be able to turn it around quickly, but at the moment this is the impression,

[Andi76]

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

Understand. So discount Mercedes from 2014 onwards - how does the field look? Discount Red Bull from 2010-2013 - how does the field look? Discount Brawn and Red Bull in 2009 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren from 2007&2008 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and Renault from 2006 - how does the field look? Discount Renault and McLaren from 2005. Discount Ferrari from 2004 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren from 2003 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari from 2001&2002 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and McLaren from 1998-2000 - how does the field look? Discount Ferrari and Williams from 1997 - how does the field look? Discount Williams from 1996 - how does the field look? Discount Benetton and Williams from 1994 and 1995 - how does the field look?

You always have one or two teams in F1 who do a better job than others. But you cannot just discount them. Sorry - whats that? Its not only disrespectfull to the ones who really did a great job, its also disrespectfull to everyone in F1 history who did a great job. But anyway - even if you discount Ferrari and Red Bull - all Mercedes Teams would still do worse than they did last year. And Mercedes would still have a car porpoising like hell, fighting with Haas, Alfa and Alpha Tauri....

So you disagree, fine you are allowed to. Dont get so worked up its just a forum.

I am not really worked up. I just do not understand this argumentation at all, to be honest....like i never did before. Following this argumentation, no team ever did bad. But anyway - everyone may have his own definition.

[Andi76]

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You start off with "has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari at all", so discount them, how does the field look now? all just about there?

Even if you "exclude" Ferrari and Red Bull (even though I am not sure of why you would do that) and you consider Mercedes as first team, all other teams are considerably closer than last year. In some case even in front of Mercedes (Hamilton was behind Alpine, McLaren, Alpha Tauri and Haas last race).
At the moment Mercedes is having clear difficulties. Obviously they will improve and fix some very evident issues, but at the moment they did not do an amazing job.

But if Merc had brought a superior engine and blown everyone else into the weeds, would all the others (not using Merc engines) be rubbish, or would it be Merc infront of the curve?

There has been a big change so some are bound to have got it more right than others, and some more wrong.
Its the way of things. in 3 months it may be all change (or it may not )

You are always saying "if"...if Ferrari had brought a superior engine in 2020 and blew everyone away would all the others have been rubbish or Ferrari in front of the curve? There is no if. Its not the case. It is like it is. So they did a bad job. They did not get their things together. And thats what F1 is about. I am sorry to say it but you may also do not understand that a F1 Car is always about everything on the car working together. One part of the car influences the rest of the car. Its not about the best engine. Its not about the best chassis. Its about the best car. The best package. Thats probably also the reason why Mercedes is always talking about drag. Their package is not right at all in that regard. And because of that - they did a bad job and others did a much better job.

Maybe it will change in 3 months- but i hardly doubt it. This was never the case in F1 history. If a team started like that it never ended on top.

[ClarkBT11]

It's ironic how some of our members slate Reddit members and other forums of the same ilk and question their IQ...

Is it to late to change my mind and pick the red pill?

[214270]

[chrisc90]

What else can it be?

[matt_b]

Power unit has no budget cap.

I am not sure that this is true, but even if it was, there are still time constraints since they spent so much time trying to fix reliability issues for last year's PU.

There isn't a PU budget cap. Never has been. Teams can spend unlimited budget and man power on it. It's all moot now because engines are frozen.

Not all of the engine components: MGU-K, ERS and Control Electronics and the are not frozen until September 2022. These can all be developed for performance gains.

[F1Krof]

As I said before, we only see it as 4 teems getting it wrong because 2 are a considerable step in front.
Had RBR and Ferrari been just a couple of % more off the pace, it would be a normal spread and every one would be happy it was not a gaffe, just needing some development.

Not really...it has nothing to do with RBR and Ferrari. No one can seriously deny that all the Mercedes Teams got worse and have serious problems. And all the "not Mercedes"-Teams got better and are doing good. And also if Ferrari and RBR would be just a couple % off the pace would not change the fact that all Mercedes Teams got worse...and if it would just be about "some developement" - there was enough time already for some developement. And even if it would be just some developement - the other teams are developing, too. And thats why you usually do not have a lot of change in the pecking order throughout a season.

Mercedes had crazy power at the end of last season. lewis could manage to effortlessly overtake half way down the straights.
I think FIA found something ala Ferrari and forced mercedes to quietly change a "illegal" system.
The sudden loss of power with all MB powered teams are just like it was when Ferrari was caught out and quietly forced to change.

As I said earlier, Mercedes 2022 is the Ferrari 2021. Not enough downforce, now enough power! Stuck in no man's land.

[214270]

What else can it be?

Not sure whether Scarbs means total car aero or floor aero specifically. There was some speculation a few pages back about flow detachment causing the porpoising for what it’s worth.

[matteosc]

I am quite confused on what is causing it then...
On a (maybe not so) different note, there was a discrepancy between Hamilton, which claimed that his troubles were caused by a bad setup, and Toto, which stated that Ham and Russ cars were not that different in setup.
It is of course impossible to know it from the outside, but they did not have any apparent differences in the aero package; is it possible that Merc is too sensitive and difficult to set up? Could minor differences in suspensions/aerodynamic setup cause big differences in performance?