Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Pierce89
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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gray41 wrote:Rosberg is becoming a very unlikable driver, some bull Sht moves.
Rosberg is only becoming "very unlikeable" to Hamilton fans. Further more, as unfortunate as it may be, when someone reads a remark like that, and then looks over and sees Hamilton as your avatar they think "Hamilton is becoming a "very unlikeable" driver, if for no other reason than his fan base".

Edit: I hate being the first post on a new page and here I am 1st 2nd and 3rd.
Last edited by Pierce89 on 10 Jun 2014, 05:15, edited 1 time in total.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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Pierce89
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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zeph wrote:
MercedesAMGSpy wrote:He gave everything and this is the result, always bad luck. Rosberg cuts a chicane, gains time and got away with it. He has a brake failure. If Lewis wins this championship, he fully deserved it.
This race has left me with a bad feeling. I don't want to believe it, but I am beginning to wonder if racism could be a factor in this.
To bring race into this is truly,truly,truly ridiculous. Its on a special level of ridiculous. We don't even have the same stewards at each race, so it would have be a world-wide white surpremacist conspiracy to rob Lewis of the title. If you're starting to wonder about racism in this situation, I suppose you see racism everywhere, huh?
Last edited by Pierce89 on 10 Jun 2014, 16:13, edited 1 time in total.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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ringo
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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End of the day Hamilton wins the championship before abudahbi. :|
Beat rosberg last year, he'll do it again; nothing has chaged. :|
For Sure!!

GrizzleBoy
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Vettel Maggot wrote:Good post Mandrake. People are forgetting Lewis' dirty driving and blocking earlier in the year and think he is entitled to the WDC. He is getting outsmarted and outdriven by Nico at the moment, it makes it a lot spicier.
So you're saying NICO outsmarted Lewis' engine into running with only five cylinders in Australia?

And he also managed to outdrive Lewis' brakes till they exploded?

Interesting..... you're probably onto something there..... maybe Lewis is just too 'stupid' to learn how to outsmart NICO's car into not finishing races? Its a good strategy after all.

I wonder if Vettel also outsmarted Webber's KERS every other race like that too?

Vettel Maggot
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Hush little fanboy.

Vettel smashed Webber, KERS or no KERS. Hamilton got outsmarted in Monaco by Nico's 'error' and he has been outdriven in qualifying now 2 races in a row. You know, I had no feelings towards Hammo or Rosberg but reading this drivel on these threads has made me support Nico. I hope Hamilton's car keeps breaking just so I can lick the tears from the fanboy's faces.

prince
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Vettel Maggot wrote:Hush little fanboy.

Vettel smashed Webber, KERS or no KERS. Hamilton got outsmarted in Monaco by Nico's 'error' and he has been outdriven in qualifying now 2 races in a row. You know, I had no feelings towards Hammo or Rosberg but reading this drivel on these threads has made me support Nico. I hope Hamilton's car keeps breaking just so I can lick the tears from the fanboy's faces.
And I thought people come here to gain technical knowledge on F1. Now I know there are sadistic idiots do exists everywhere. Dude, grow up.

I guess bhall's reply is befitting to you too. Bhall, apologize if you feel offfended for having used your response, without asking for permission. :P
bhall wrote:
mnmracer wrote:...
Dude, you've got your head shoved so far up Sebastian Vettel's ass that if he ever came to a sudden stop, you'd be able to taste what the man had for breakfast.

A word of advice: those who can't stomach technical reality should probably stay away from technical forums, because we're quite often allowed to speak in absolutes regardless of anyone's emotional response. I don't profess to have all the answers, but I know enough to recognize that engineering tends to be a real bitch that way.

So, if it ever seems like I ignore certain arguments or repeat myself over and over again, it's mostly because some folks simply refuse to learn.

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SiLo
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Judging by Hamiltons pace on the softs, I'm pretty sure he wasn't too annoyed to not get pole knowing he was a lot faster on them and can actually overtake here.

Obviously the ERS failure leading to the brake failure likely stopped the inevitable. To me, Rosberg was saved by the mechanical issues here. But he is still doing a cracking job, and bringing the car home in 2nd was a great achievement.
Felipe Baby!

Mandrake
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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In this race Hamilton had a bit of luck too with this retirement. Normally if one of the Mercs retires, the other one wins. This time, Rosberg only came second. That means if DNFs over the season will be equally shared, Hamilton just "won" 7 points by Nico finishing 2nd only ;)

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RZS10
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Reading comments of Niki Lauda going on about how Rosberg drove godlike, like a true champion and how his reaction to the ERS failure was more intelligent than Hamiltons it becomes obvious who the german team wants to win the WDC ... -.-

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Phil
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Mandrake wrote:Both in Bahrain and Spain Rosberg was the faster guy, but Hamilton got the win. So by your logic you should be worried that in the end it might be Rosberg who is best but not WDC...
I still don't agree, as the differing strategy taints the picture. I think it's fair to say that in Bahrain, Nico was only "clearly quicker" because the safety car had closed the gap that otherwise hadn't been. That Rosberg was on an alternative strategy isn't his fault, but a gamble his side of the team took and was what was discussed before the race. Nico never critized his team, neither did he do that in Barcelona, so I think it's safe to assume he was happy and confident in the strategy the team gave him.

In Bahrain, Rosberg was only quicker because he was on the option tyre when Lewis was on the prime with 10 laps to go and a safety car that neutralized what would have been a close to, if I remember correctly, 9 seconds gap.

In Barcelona - the race was closer and without a safety car, we can see that Rosbergs 'alternative strategy' worked out brilliantly in that he was effectively able to close the gap. On the other hand though, we can't say for absolute certainty that the speed differential Nico seemed to have on Lewis in the 2nd half of the race wasn't due to the strategy he was on. If you look at his second stint when Lewis was on options and Nico on primes, you will see that Nico had very competitive times. This could have been due to Nico working the tyres brilliantly and/or that the difference between option and primes on that fuel load and track surface condition were quite similar in pace, with little between them with the difference that the prime potentially the stronger race tyre. This isn't unheard of - it proved to be the same in Canada as well where the prime tyre was the stronger of the two (stronger in the context that the speed differential that the softer tyre offers is little over the extended period of the stint that prime can deliver).

Accoarding to the team; the practice sessions showed that the OOP strategy and the OPO (that Nico was on) were quite similar, with a slight advantage on the OOP (based off simulation runs they did two days before, in a different state on the track mind you).

Let me illustrate:
Image

This roughly shows (please ignore my rather basic photoshop skills) two different tyre strategies, one OOP and one OPO that end up being exactly idential pace wise over the entirety of the race. If the race were 1 lap shorter, the OOP would be quicker, if it were 1 lap longer, the OPO would be quicker. This basic graph is of course a rather basic illustration as it lacks that over the duration of a GP, the stints are not straight lines, but rather curves, because the tyres lose grip and their performance and then of course the fact that the cars become light towards the end of a GP. Still, it rather illustrates nicely how two differing strategies could be exactly identical over the course of a GP, but given how the strategy unfolds, the car on the OPO strategy will always look quicker. It looks quicker, because you are pitting the faster tyre against the slower one on the last stint.

Now back to Barcelona or a typical race - this would only be exagerated because the cars have less weight towards the end of the GP - where as in the middle stint, you may still be playing the "long game". As such, the driver on the Option tyre in the middle stint might pushing less, trying to extend his tyres to deal with any risks (safety car or tyres losing grip) as well as fuel savings etc. At the end of the race, this might be less of a factor because you are already on your last stint, less laps to go and by then, with the car being at its lightest, fuel might be less of a factor too. This can potentially open up the gap between two differing strategies. One other factor is, the "hunting driver" (that being Nico in this case) can always be slightly more agressive as the leading driver sets the pace. The worst that could happen, if for example the tyres fall short, would be an earlier pit with little down side. Given the pure pace advantage of the Mercedes in those GPs, 2nd spot might never have been in jeopardy. The leading driver needs to ensure he doesn't take any unnecessary risks, so its important he sets a good pace with fewer risks.


Anyway, this is just to cover the angle was Nico the faster driver in Bahrain and especially Barcelona. At the very least, I'd say he was identical and likely, assuming he'd been on an identical strategy, perhaps a little quicker pace wise in Barcelona. In Bahrain, I don't see it as clear cut - first stint on similar tyres showed that Hamilton could pull a gap initially, but the load he took off his tyres caused Nico to close the gap towards the end of the stint, which is where they had their battle for pit-stop priority. After that, they were on different stints and there, yes, I think the OOP was clearly the prefered and quicker strategy. Given that Nico couldn't pass Lewis at the end with 10 laps to go on options vs primes, I still think it would have made less of a difference if the team had put him under the identical strategy. He would have basically followed Lewis "home". The alternative strategy gave hope to beat his team mate on strategy - something that didn't work in Bahrain, but was closer and nearly worked in Barcelona.

This is all very different to Canada. They were both on the same strategy from start to finish and Lewis, especially on the soft tyre, clearly showed he had better pace - and I'm convinced, without any car problems, would have ended up in front of Rosberg - just as he already did through the pits when problems struck. To some degree, this might also have been the case in Monaco, when Lewis remained quite close to his team-mate, before the safety car ruined any potential he had to pass him in the pits and it was clear that he wouldn't get passed on that track.

If some of us feel the WDC points don't represent the fair picture, it isn't because at some phase of a race, one of the two was quicker, but at least that Hamilton is extremely hard done by the 2 DNFs he suffered, compared to his team-mate who has had none - one being a race where he should have won (Canada) and assuming he didn't have any car problems in Australia, could have as well, if not at the very least coming in 2nd. That's a deficit of 43 points, best case being 57. This might all change to the end of the season when Nico might be struck with his overdue DNF, but statistically, this could very well strike Hamilton again. Every race starts from zero after all. Then there is the mental aspect, which I think should not be underestimated. These two drivers are neck at neck - qualifying shows how close they are. If you knew you had to do it all again by doing 3 consecutive wins to beat the deficit your last DNF just caused... only to suffer another at a race you should have won as well, well... at some point, you start to drive differently. You push more, because you know the importance of winning and closing the gap. And this is, what could IMO cause more frustration with the team and potentially another DNF or lost points, less concentration.

If I were to bet money on the WDC, I probably would bet my money on Rosberg. Even if I do believe that so far this season, Hamilton has shown the stronger racing and ability so far.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

basti313
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Phil wrote:This is all very different to Canada. They were both on the same strategy from start to finish and Lewis, especially on the soft tyre, clearly showed he had better pace
Actually...no...Rosberg opend the gap as he needed to for the pitstop in the first stint. In the second stint before the problems with the ERS he also easily opened a gap from lap 29 to lap 36 for the pitstop. In lap 37 the ERS malfunctioned which brought them close together and in lap 45 they came for the planned pitstop again with a gap.
So Rosberg was just controlling the gap and saving tires for the pitstops and Hamilton was giving it a try round Rosberg's "fault". No real pace difference visible.
Phil wrote: - and I'm convinced, without any car problems, would have ended up in front of Rosberg - just as he already did through the pits when problems struck.
How? He made his attempt in lap 24 with a 0.3sec gap at the hairpin and did not get next to Rosberg. You can not drive any closer through the hairpin and thus you can not overtake a similar car on this track.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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Pierce89
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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60DShim wrote:
flynfrog wrote:
60DShim wrote:
So you are okay with Nico leading/winning the WDC because Hamilton's DNF's from mechanical issues? I'm not ok with that, I'd rather he win because he genuinely did better than Hamilton.
He did he finished the race. Winning the championship has never been about being faster. you have to bring the car home
Toto Wolff himself said that Hamilton's brake failure wasn't his fault. It was because of MGU-K failure putting a heavier load on the brakes then when he pitted it cause them to critically overheat.
Mercedes co-boss Toto Wolff said: "We had a problem with both cars on the same lap. When Lewis pitted, because of pit stop, the temperatures rose too high in the brakes and he lost them.
"We knew brakes could be an issue, but this particular issue occured because if you loses the MGU-K, it's much harder on the brakes. And with the rise in temperatures in the pits you end up having a real problem."
http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3369/934 ... power-loss

It leaves a nasty feeling for me that any driver can do the absolute best he can but lose the championship from mechanical issues. Then the 2nd place driver, who isn't doing the best/winning the most wins the championship and everyone hails him as the best in the world. That shouldn't be the way the championship works.
I guess you ought to avoid motor racing, then.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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Phil
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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basti313 wrote:Actually...no...Rosberg opend the gap as he needed to for the pitstop in the first stint. In the second stint before the problems with the ERS he also easily opened a gap from lap 29 to lap 36 for the pitstop. In lap 37 the ERS malfunctioned which brought them close together and in lap 45 they came for the planned pitstop again with a gap.
So Rosberg was just controlling the gap and saving tires for the pitstops and Hamilton was giving it a try round Rosberg's "fault". No real pace difference visible.
We must have been watching a different race then. In the race I saw on Sunday, Hamilton, once on the prime tyre, closed the gap again and again. This was clearly visible in that the gap came down from tops being 2 second down to ~.5 to ~.9, the point in which Hamilton was within Nico's DRS. This was also within the time period where Rosberg radio'ed his pitwall to ask what brake balance Hamilton was using. It was also this phase where Rosberg made the error, where he outbraked himself whilst being under pressure, cut the chicane and gained an advantage that, as we recall, wasn't penalized. Due to him cutting the chicane, he gained a sufficient gap which brought Lewis back out of the DRS zone for a few laps until he gained again, until he was inside it.

Within the phase when both cars suffered the same problem (lack of power, which was radio'ed by Lewis first), both cars had no ERS and again Lewis seemed to be quicker - as this also led to the point in which he managed to overtake his team-mate (pitstop wasn't in Nico's favour though, his tyre got stuck, but that 'only' lost him about a second relative to Lewis's stop). His outlap wasn't too good either.

So, again, I'm not sure how this shows that Nico was "maintaing the gap". Mainting the gap would be keeping his team mate out of the DRS zone - something he failed to do on numerous occsions - prior to the ERS failure and during.

Lets not mistake "maintaing a gap" with "car behind in another cars wake, yet still closing in on numerous accounts but didn't quite get close [up to that point] to align himself for a DRS overtake opportunity".

Also, the race director didn't show Ham/Ros all that much during these phases, but they regularly blend in the time gaps.
Phil wrote:How? He made his attempt in lap 24 with a 0.3sec gap at the hairpin and did not get next to Rosberg. You can not drive any closer through the hairpin and thus you can not overtake a similar car on this track.
By overtaking him in the pits, just as he did, while both cars had identical problems. Also, the other point would be - if Nico had not cut the chicane prior to all this and took whatever compromised angle he was forced to take given his braking error (lets assume there wasn't a chicane but a wall there), Lewis likely would have got passed into the corner or on exit. I say likely, because obviously, we'll never know given Nico did cut it while Lewis took the normal line through the corner. If we ignore this, we must assume that error would have generated quite a compromised line into the corner given both the fronts were completely locked when Nico bailed out on the corner. Both front-locked == no steering.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

basti313
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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Phil wrote:Due to him cutting the chicane, he gained a sufficient gap which brought Lewis back out of the DRS zone for a few laps until he gained again, until he was inside it.
So you just ignore, that Rosberg opened the gap from lap 29 to 35 again and could get Lewis out of DRS? And the same before both pitstops? Well, hard to argue about pace if you ignore the facts...
Phil wrote: as this also led to the point in which he managed to overtake his team-mate (pitstop wasn't in Nico's favour though, his tyre got stuck, but that 'only' lost him about a second relative to Lewis's stop). His outlap wasn't too good either.
:lol:
Crazy view...Rosberg opened the 0.3sec gap up to a 1.2sec gap for the pitstop and had a very good outlap. Every outlap on this day was 0.4sec slower than the inlap and the gap was sufficient for that. It was only the fault of the pit crew that led to the pass, because it cost 1.5sec.
Phil wrote: So, again, I'm not sure how this shows that Nico was "maintaing the gap". Mainting the gap would be keeping his team mate out of the DRS zone - something he failed to do on numerous occsions - prior to the ERS failure and during.
They are just too similar in pace. If Lewis is pushing and using his tires the gap closes immediately and once in DRS it is very hard to get rid of him. Niko managed to get rid of him when he had to although Lewis was on the edge with his brakes.
Phil wrote:If we ignore this, we must assume that error would have generated quite a compromised line into the corner given both the fronts were completely locked when Nico bailed out on the corner. Both front-locked == no steering.
Compromising both of them. If Niko would have made the corner, he would have still been there.
I think it is hard to argue about that. The stewards ignored it when the Torro cut the chicane, so they could not do anything when someone else cut the chicane...
Lewis had the same gap again in lap 29, but did not try again and lost the DRS in the following rounds...Niko would not have a second chance on cutting...who to blame for that?
Don`t russel the hamster!

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dans79
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Re: Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

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basti313 wrote:
They are just too similar in pace. If Lewis is pushing and using his tires the gap closes immediately and once in DRS it is very hard to get rid of him. Niko managed to get rid of him when he had to although Lewis was on the edge with his brakes.
If they are so similar, and that's one big if, how come Nico wasn't able to capitalize on the fact that Lewis was stuck behind Vettel for almost 4 laps after the safety car period? Surely if they are so close, Nico should have been able to pull out a gap of several seconds and then hold it the entire race....
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