2025 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, May 16 - 18

[basti313]

Max did to him in turn 2 what Piastri should have done to Max in turn 1. Max was always the bigger threat and he should have been covered off more aggressively.

I think this is armchair expert nonsense.

For the video and pushing: The rules are different now. As seen with Lec, if they push on this location, they get a penalty. And Max would not have gone into the gravel without carnage, most probably Pia would have just ruined his own race against Nor by destroying his wing.

For defending: Pia was committed on the inside line. There was no space to move over more than he did. He moved to the maximum he could move under braking. Leaving the inside open would most probably end in both Rus and Ver passing him...or Nor. Standing on the inside was the chance for P1 and secured in the end P2. Could have been much worse on the outside with maybe even gravel.

What were the issues:
- Bad start with a lot of wheelspin in 2nd gear. Same for Ver.
- Too early on the brake. He did not want to cause big carnage there. In the end this is what allowed Ver to pass. Not the line, not aggressiveness against Ver.

[Sieper]

Albon vs Leclerc.

Max would not have gone into the gravel.

Yes but the poster is arguing that the outside line on a race start is advantageous.

That holds some truth here, the outside line is the raceline here. Many circuits have p1 in front, but not per se the best spot.

[AR3-GP]

Max would not have gone into the gravel.

Yes but the poster is arguing that the outside line on a race start is advantageous.

That holds some truth here, the outside line is the raceline here. Many circuits have p1 in front, but not per se the best spot.

Verstappen will make any position "look like the best starting spot".

I remember the starts that Verstappen managed in Mexico many years ago. In 2021 he went from 3rd to 1st after the start. The detractors said "You don't want pole in Mexico because of the long run to the T1 and the tow, easy move for Max". The next year he started from pole and led the first corner. Then the narrative shifted: "Pole is the best starting spot" Over the years there, he won the start from the outside lane ("of course, the outside lets you carry more speed"), the middle lane ("of course, the others have to back out"), and the inside lane ("of course, it's the inside line to the corner"). Detractors were chasing their tails...

Anyway, back to Imola. Verstappen would never have lost the lead from Piastri's position, and we wouldn't be talking about outside line being favored here (that is only done by some to belittle the difference between the two that allows something like this to happen). Drivers go into T1 with cold tires and a full fuel load so the grip and braking points are changed. Piastri didn't know where to brake. You simply don't go into a race with Max Verstappen and "not know where to brake". Piastri should have tested the braking distances from each lane on his practice starts from Friday. That's the level of preparation that you need if you are hoping to challenge Max because he will punish anything less than 100%. You need to execute perfectly from start to finish, or have an overwhelming car advantage to beat him.

[ispano6]

Back in the day if you were on pole could choose the side of the grid you started on.

When they were lining up on Sunday I looked at Max on the rhs and thought that if I had the choice I’d start on the right. The right is more on the racing line, less dusty at least. When you get to T1 if you’re side by side then you’re on the racing line. OK you can be pushed off by someone braking late on the inside but I feel I’d still rather be on the racing line with momentum and carrying more speed into the corner.

I’m not sure why pole became fixed and the rationale for choosing which side of the track P1 is on.

Depends on the track. Senna and Prost famously crashed in Suzuka because they moved pole to the inside line, which Senna was furious about. The issue for Senna wasn't that it was on the inside, the issue was that as the polesitter he was made to use the dirty, less grippy side of the track. So if Piastri asked to use the outside pit box as the pole sitter, he would have had a start like Max's, which was sub-optimal given it is the dirty side of the track at the actual starting grid position. The racing line only becomes the outside much farther down the straight. Palmer explained it pretty well during the broadcast - at one point the timing sheets showed Piastri and Russell in P1 and P2, they had far superior grip than Max and Russell had the slipstream. Max was behind enough to make Piastri think Max wasn't as big a threat as Russell and opted to cover him since Russell actually was the one with the slipstream. Max just made sure to brake latest and crucially be ahead to claim the next corner. There are many tracks that the polesitter is at somewhat of a disadvantage either due to a long straight or the sequence of turns from turn 1.

[AR3-GP]

Formation lap burnout numbers:

PIA: 2 long burnouts
VER: 3 long burnouts + 1 medium burnout
RUS: 2 short burnouts
NOR: 1 long burnout(low rev) + 2 long burnouts + 1 short burnout

[avantman]

Piastri didn't know where to brake. You simply don't go into a race with Max Verstappen and "not know where to brake". Piastri should have tested the braking distances from each lane on his practice starts from Friday. That's the level of preparation that you need if you are hoping to challenge Max because he will punish anything less than 100%. You need to execute perfectly from start to finish, or have an overwhelming car advantage to beat him.

He won't be able to prepare that or learn anything. It's innate feel, ultimately raw talent. Max had that ability already as a kid in karting and sport's pros could recognize it that early. This is why he's been so great on lap1 both in dry and wet since being 18 years old rookie. This is why he can go round the outside of soon to be world champion rosberg in wet Brazil after the restart where grip level is unknown. It's not preparation, it's instinct, talent and complete lack of any fear to make a mistake.

Max Verstappen's CRG karting team boss, Giancarlo Tinini, noted that "few racers are able to make the difference in the first two laps of a race," and Verstappen is one of them. Tinini also said Verstappen has "an extraordinary mastery of the vehicle," highlighting his early talent. This suggests that Verstappen's ability to make a significant impact, particularly on the first lap of a race, was recognized even in his karting days

The difference between those two was best on display in Brazil last year. It's very naive to think Piastri would ever reach that (no matter how well he prepares on installation and warm up laps), knowing what Max could do at 18 in his 2nd season there in 2016.

[avantman]

Piastri didn't know where to brake. You simply don't go into a race with Max Verstappen and "not know where to brake". Piastri should have tested the braking distances from each lane on his practice starts from Friday. That's the level of preparation that you need if you are hoping to challenge Max because he will punish anything less than 100%. You need to execute perfectly from start to finish, or have an overwhelming car advantage to beat him.

He won't be able to prepare that or learn anything. It's innate feel, ultimately raw talent. Max had that ability already as a kid in karting and sport's pros could recognize it that early. This is why he's been so great on lap1 both in dry and wet since being 18 years old rookie. This is why he can go round the outside of soon to be world champion rosberg in wet Brazil after the restart where grip level is unknown. It's not preparation, it's instinct, talent and complete lack of any fear to make a mistake.

Max Verstappen's CRG karting team boss, Giancarlo Tinini, noted that "few racers are able to make the difference in the first two laps of a race," and Verstappen is one of them. Tinini also said Verstappen has "an extraordinary mastery of the vehicle," highlighting his early talent. This suggests that Verstappen's ability to make a significant impact, particularly on the first lap of a race, was recognized even in his karting days
CRG now says goodbye to Max, who is ready to move to cars...
"I wish him all the best. Max is a very talented driver that has important qualities that very few have, like spontaneity."
That is exactly it. That move in T1 was spontaneous, purely instinctive. Of course Oscar, can't really blame him, just like any other mortal would never think it was even possible from that far back. You can't premeditate that and no other driver would ever go for that move. Otherwise we would've seen many of such moves over the years from other drivers.

The difference between those two was best on display in Brazil last year. It's very naive to think Piastri would ever reach that (no matter how well he prepares on installation and warm up laps), knowing what Max could do at 18 in his 2nd season there in 2016.

[Mandrake]

Max did to him in turn 2 what Piastri should have done to Max in turn 1. Max was always the bigger threat and he should have been covered off more aggressively.

I think this is armchair expert nonsense.

For the video and pushing: The rules are different now. As seen with Lec, if they push on this location, they get a penalty. And Max would not have gone into the gravel without carnage, most probably Pia would have just ruined his own race against Nor by destroying his wing.

For defending: Pia was committed on the inside line. There was no space to move over more than he did. He moved to the maximum he could move under braking. Leaving the inside open would most probably end in both Rus and Ver passing him...or Nor. Standing on the inside was the chance for P1 and secured in the end P2. Could have been much worse on the outside with maybe even gravel.

What were the issues:
- Bad start with a lot of wheelspin in 2nd gear. Same for Ver.
- Too early on the brake. He did not want to cause big carnage there. In the end this is what allowed Ver to pass. Not the line, not aggressiveness against Ver.

Personally what I would love to see is that PIA was right to give Max room because Max was able to go round the outside into such a position. Many people forget how hard it is to go round the outside and still stay on track AND "overtaking" someone. In return however, because they were essentially still side by side, Max should have been forced to leave space for Piastri on HIS outside for the next turn then.

Everyone is complaining about the lack of passing, about too many DRS passes. Yet when cars go wheel to wheel the consensus seems to be it's okay to force another driver off. Defending is made very easy if you can cover the inside and then just make the outside car run off track.

Overtaking is an art. You try to get the lead car into a suboptimal position to take benefit from it. It doesn't work if the suboptimalism is being conquered by denying the other car any space.

Max would still have gone out victorious out of this battle, it would just have been that bit nicer. And Albon would have come 4th instead and not lost the position to Hamilton. And Albon deserved that position!

[organic]

In my view the choice of c4-c6 made the weekend better

[vorticism]

Imola should be considered a rite of passage in Formula 1. Not everything must be about overtaking or who pays the most money. This element has been lost. What is the meaning and prestige of winning a Formula 1 championship if 75% of the calendar is easy to drive temporary circuits. Thats also why Monaco must stay. You aren't an F1 driver until you've pushed and binned it around the walls of Monaco at least once. This is what links champions of the past to those of the present day.

The result corroborated this post. And to speak of pop-up GPs, events like Vegas 2 and Miami cannot become mythical as they have no lineage nor any unique investment. Cheap franchising opportunities with minimal effort put in.

[AR3-GP]

I don't understand why drivers who pitted on lap 12 of a 63 lap race are upset or surprised that they got screwed. All of Pirelli's pre-race strats suggestions were 1 stoppers. If you pit on lap 12 of a 63 lap race, you can only blame yourself for getting screwed. 2 stops was never going to work, and 1 stopper pitting on lap 12 was never going to work.

[Watto]

I don't understand why drivers who pitted on lap 12 of a 63 lap race are upset or surprised that they got screwed. All of Pirelli's pre-race strats suggestions were 1 stoppers. If you pit on lap 12 of a 63 lap race, you can only blame yourself for getting screwed. 2 stops was never going to work, and 1 stopper pitting on lap 12 was never going to work.

Yep, I commented I though McLaren panicked when they saw Charles purple sectors/laps

Feared a little that a few more laps and the undercut was on and they'd force RBR/Max to react. they didn't any no one in the DRS train reacted.

I do wonder if Oscar has burned his tyres or if it was more your standard issue that they start looking a little bad but drive through it and they come good.

[avantman]

Yep, I commented I though McLaren panicked when they saw Charles purple sectors/laps

Feared a little that a few more laps and the undercut was on and they'd force RBR/Max to react. they didn't any no one in the DRS train reacted.

For me personally it was clear their call to pit Oscar had nothing to do with Charles, because they had still a very big margin, he came out of the pits like 4.5s and that after a very bad pit stop that costed Oscar 1.5s extra time loss.
Oscar kept consistent gap of around 1.6s to Max from the start but then he went much slower on three laps in a row losing a second and risking to fall completely off an undercut range. They stopped him for sure trying to force Red bull to react and pit Max in order to stay ahead of Oscar. There was a big gap in front of Oscar where Max would fit in comfortably, so it was not unreasonable to think Red bull might take it. Mclaren thought they would keep Lando on 1 stop strategy hoping for the best, lucky SC or something. They were just trying to win this race with either of their drivers at that stage. Had they passively stayed where they were just keeping Oscar P2, they would have no chance whatsoever, because Mclaren know very well Oscar was quite poor on opening stints and softer tire previously this year as well.He was just as weak at Suzuka(Norris following closely behind Max had any of those issues) and in Jeddah. Norris looks after his tires better, apart from rare days when heavy graining occurs at the front. His driving makes this issue much more prominent, which is in turn Lando's weakness. On such days, like Monza 2024, China Sprint 2025 Oscar looks much better. Sunday at Imola was not one of those days. And also, do not forget it was Oscar himself who effectively called for 2 stopper.

[Watto]

Oscar did not have to leave room, as he was tucked up on the inside, i think he was shocked to see Max there and his reflex was to avoid being damaged. If he was a Perez or Max himself, he would have "understeered" more to the outside.
As good as Max's move was, it was living on a prayer. It was a clinical divebomb that could have resulted in a crash where Piastri would not be blamed for it.

My point is made here by Palmer that being alongside or ahead at the apex he had right to room had Piastri opened the steering it would be a crash. The early braking cost him, but I think from there it seems the overtake rules have a guideline from overtaking on the outside too just you have to be further ahead compared to the inside line. Probably a little of everything going right for Max as explained by Palmer no slip stream opened the door for the move, Oscar braking a little. too early

[pipoloko]

what was this? Joseph And Lando two laps to go, do not use the right hand toggle in turn seven, the paddle is okay though.