Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
That's very interesting, maybe Prodromou is exploiting the new wastegate rules in some Red Bull-esque way.Wazari wrote:I have specifically asked about the new wastegate for 2016 and was politely denied any answers with my understanding that McLaren does not want that information to go out before the official preview.
Joseki wrote:That's very interesting, maybe Prodromou is exploiting the new wastegate rules in some Red Bull-esque way.Wazari wrote:I have specifically asked about the new wastegate for 2016 and was politely denied any answers with my understanding that McLaren does not want that information to go out before the official preview.
Why people tend to say that mclaren had no ERS at all. ?They had it! But not for 33 sec. If they didnt have ers at all they would be a lot down compared to others.Blackout wrote:223hp gain is very realistic. In 2015, Mclaren had no Kers and no Ters (because of the size zero concpet). In 2016 thet will use these hence the 160hp increase + the ICE progress.
I don't think so, as we know so far that Honda has used a small size turbine-compressor so the turbine should work normally when mgh-h harvests energy.bauc wrote:Agreed, it will be interesting to hear the sound of the new engine and to make comparison with the old one.godlameroso wrote:I think their low inertia compressor was stalling during mgu-h harvesting. Hence the distinctive sound of their engine.
Winter testing,please come sooner.
The compressor and turbine being on the same shaft sort of makes their inertia... the same, no? Sure - you could reason about their inertias being different from a shaft vibration or resilience perspective but that would be it.godlameroso wrote:The turbine can work as well as it wants, but if you use a small compressor that's light and has little inertia, and your MGU-H is too powerful it can cause your low inertia compressor to partially stall, since they all rest on a common shaft. The MGU-H can be clutched, and I imagine all teams clutch it, otherwise the turbine would never work at all.
Now back to what I believe was Honda's mistake. They banked on a high speed compressor, only this compressor is very sensitive to velocity, the MGU-H puts a load on this compressor shaft because they're all linked. Not only does the MGU-H slow down the turbine, but also the compressor. This caused the compressor the partially stall when there was MGU-H harvesting going on, this reduced boost pressure, and efficiency, and also created more back pressure when the turbine was partially stalled causing less harvesting, and less engine power in a cascading effect. This explains why they couldn't fix the problem, they didn't have enough tokens to redesign the turbo compound setup. The way to go seems to make the compressor achieve maximum boost at as little rpm as possible, and relying heavily on the MGU-H to harvest. The trick is to have a compressor with a lot of inertia, and a turbine with as little inertia as possible. In other words, you need to select a turbo turbine combination that will load up the MGU-H as much as possible, while having great response, and not be sensitive to flow velocity change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressor_stallAxi-symmetric stall, more commonly known as compressor surge; or pressure surge, is a complete breakdown in compression resulting in a reversal of flow and the violent expulsion of previously compressed air out through the engine intake, due to the compressor's inability to continue working against the already-compressed air behind it.
Partially, there's different types of stall some more severe than others.bill shoe wrote:Godlameroso, I also have hurril's question-- I would think the overall inertia of everything on the shaft is what matters... Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean.
I also didn't understand the term "compressor stall". I figured turbo-compressor stall must occur when the turbine is spinning too fast for the intake air, and this seems opposite of your description of the MGU-H harvesting too strongly which would cause slow compressor speed. So I looked into types of compressor stalling and found this on Wikipedia which seems to match what you describe--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressor_stallAxi-symmetric stall, more commonly known as compressor surge; or pressure surge, is a complete breakdown in compression resulting in a reversal of flow and the violent expulsion of previously compressed air out through the engine intake, due to the compressor's inability to continue working against the already-compressed air behind it.
Is this the type of stall you meant? I like your post, but I'm trying to wrap my brain around it. Thanks.
No you can't. This has been discussed many times in the V6 engine thread - the MGUH can be separated from the turbo with a clutch, but the turbine compressor and connecting shaft system must rotate at the same speed at all times.godlameroso wrote:Well the rules say that you can clutch the MGU-H, so you can effectively separate the compressor from the turbine
I am glad someone brought this up. Another way to think about it is that the MGU-H can be disengaged from the compressor, but the compressor can not be disengaged from the turbine.wuzak wrote: No you can't. This has been discussed many times in the V6 engine thread - the MGUH can be separated from the turbo with a clutch, but the turbine compressor and connecting shaft system must rotate at the same speed at all times.
As regards to the sound of the Honda, for most of the season they used a log style exhaust which caused the different sound. As Mercedes did in 2014.
A change late in the 2015 season to tuned length exhausts made the Honda sound more like the others.
You obviously know very little about turbochargers. Why assume the engineers at Honda know even less than you do?godlameroso wrote:The turbine can work as well as it wants, but if you use a small compressor that's light and has little inertia, and your MGU-H is too powerful it can cause your low inertia compressor to partially stall, since they all rest on a common shaft. The MGU-H can be clutched, and I imagine all teams clutch it, otherwise the turbine would never work at all.
Now back to what I believe was Honda's mistake. They banked on a high speed compressor, only this compressor is very sensitive to velocity, the MGU-H puts a load on this compressor shaft because they're all linked. Not only does the MGU-H slow down the turbine, but also the compressor. This caused the compressor the partially stall when there was MGU-H harvesting going on, this reduced boost pressure, and efficiency, and also created more back pressure when the turbine was partially stalled causing less harvesting, and less engine power in a cascading effect. This explains why they couldn't fix the problem, they didn't have enough tokens to redesign the turbo compound setup. The way to go seems to make the compressor achieve maximum boost at as little rpm as possible, and relying heavily on the MGU-H to harvest. The trick is to have a compressor with a lot of inertia, and a turbine with as little inertia as possible. In other words, you need to select a turbo turbine combination that will load up the MGU-H as much as possible, while having great response, and not be sensitive to flow velocity change.
*If boost pressure is kept high, and engine efficiency is high, there will be more exhaust, hence more to feed the mgu-H, hence more power to the crankshaft without having to use ERS, via MGU-K, which allows you to even further minimize turbo lag via MGU-H(via ERS), and maintain boost pressure high along with engine efficiency. In a nice neat cycle.
