Mercedes GP MGP W01

[marcush.]

I´m not so sure...they had Michael pitting too early ...and that robbed him of a better result the options lasted a lot longer than that as rosberg showed.
Rosberg had a pitstop issue and a almost spin on the inlap(?) that put him behind kubica,so they looked even worse than they were.
But still lapped.. it does not look good for them ,especially for spa and Monza they will need a huge step ....

[ringo]

They have the engine to do the job in Monza though.
They need to take of the flipping front wing and nose box. Since they have the ferrari diffuser now, may as well the design a ferrari wing and shark fin.
It's saddening that they don't go all out like sauber and williams and just copy blatantly.

Mercedes should now copy: front wing, shark fin, make some changes to the nose like Fi.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

They have the engine to do the job in Monza though.
They need to take of the flipping front wing and nose box. Since they have the ferrari diffuser now, may as well the design a ferrari wing and shark fin.
It's saddening that they don't go all out like sauber and williams and just copy blatantly.

Mercedes should now copy: front wing, shark fin, make some changes to the nose like Fi.

Ringo they cannot change the nose. Not enough to make a difference anyway.

Remember where Mercedes are with this car, it was designed for a specific tyre. The tyre didnt materialise for whatever reason, and Mercedes have a fundamentally flawed car that isnt 100% in tune with its tyres. This cannot be changed, its a cross they will bear to the end of the season largely thanks to the Homologation rules.

Additionally, adding a sharkfin would make their airbox idea redundant and add even more drag to a car that is hampered by alot of it to start with.

I agree the front wing could be changed, but it would need to work first before you can place it on the car. Otherwise you are left adding bits that actually make the car slower.

Mercedes were also one of the first teams to adopt the F-duct and Blown diffuser. Sauber had insider info with De La Rosa, and Ferrari have twice the budget manpower and resources Mercedes have.
So these achievements cannot be overlooked. Mercedes have the nous, but are hampered by things they cannot change this year, can you accept that?

We all agree this year is over for Mercedes, Schumacher intimated as much by targeting the 2011 WDC. I will bet a sizeable chunk that next year Mercedes will be alot more competitive and possibly could even win a race or two.

[marcush.]

Now they have oversteer build into it .....if they lacked front downforce ...that would not happen...
they should just use the year to test as much as possible during the race weekends..
and make use of the time avaialble..
take tyre testing and evaluation to the extreme ...and run two car configuartions ..rosberg as the better placed driver with a conservative layout and Schumacher as the i will drive anything variant.. he does not care about results anyways. so what.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I think they have already reached this phase Marcush.

The thing is, in front of Mercedes home fans they have to be seen to still give a monkeys about this years championship.
They are already developing and learning things that they will be able to implement next year with the exhaust blown diffuser.

Apart from the obvious aero developments there is not alot else Mercedes can actually experiment with.
The car is flawed weight and aero wise, and learning anything from this years tyres will mean nothing when Pirelli beome the suppliers next year.

I would assume Brawn has already given his team the green light to start looking at solutions for next year. Of course they wont acknowledge that, as it admission of failure but I would be very very surprised if there was no firm solutions on the drawing board at Brackley regards the W02, or as I prefer to say, the first PROPER Mercedes

[aral]

I just heard that the Mercedes floor got wavy because of the hot exhaust gases and that they have to run this "damaged" floor during the race now.

No way has the floor been affected by "hot gasses"! First of all, the exhausts expel way behind the floor, and into the diffuser. Second, the floor and diuffuser are made of carbon fibre, which does not distort with heat!

[marcush.]

I think they have already reached this phase Marcush.

The thing is, in front of Mercedes home fans they have to be seen to still give a monkeys about this years championship.
They are already developing and learning things that they will be able to implement next year with the exhaust blown diffuser.

Apart from the obvious aero developments there is not alot else Mercedes can actually experiment with.
The car is flawed weight and aero wise, and learning anything from this years tyres will mean nothing when Pirelli beome the suppliers next year.

I would assume Brawn has already given his team the green light to start looking at solutions for next year. Of course they wont acknowledge that, as it admission of failure but I would be very very surprised if there was no firm solutions on the drawing board at Brackley regards the W02, or as I prefer to say, the first PROPER Mercedes

I really believe Merc needs to solve the riddle with the 2010 tyres to go into next season with confidence.
They sort of wished themselves through the second half of 2009 ,sometimes it worked more often it did not ...and only becuase Button had that huge cushion and
kept his head when things did not go smoothly anymore they suceeded...
But this year they seem to be complete at loss how to get on top of their issues.
start afresh without knowin axactly why you did not win ..how can you be sure that you will not have the basic flaw already in your brain and are already starting to implement it in 2011s machine?
remember they told a lot of stories what the real problem was ...if that was not just political statements but what they thoght was their problem ...I would say :
they have no clue what does hold them back really..it could be even two drivers missing 6tenths then.

about heat on carbonfibre parts:we don´t know what resin system they use..so it is not easy to state it will stand up to this or that temp.
typical resinsystems for carbonfibre chassis /structural parts:
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/D107 ... 5_4_eu.pdf
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/D8F0 ... M48_eu.pdf
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/423B ... 200_eu.pdf
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/F141 ... 655_us.pdf

so I´d say at a temperature of around 230°C a limit is reached ...I´m pretty sure the exhaust gas exit temp is quite a bit more than this. ...so you will need something else to take the heat and not have it propagate into the carbon....the
parts will of course show effects of this abuse..

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Solving this years tyres will mean nothing for 2011.

The tyres arent working because of the flaw in the chassis. This cannot be changed.
I have said it before and I will continue to repeat my belief that working to solve this years problems has no constuctive end product for next year.

They messed up the weight distribution, in somthing as intricate in an F1 car, this is nigh on impossible to remedy with balast or wheelbase change, without have an adverse effect on the car.

Bin this year, and get the W02 concepts up and running. We already have a mandatory weight distribution for next year(pushed hard by Brawn)and they are learning avbout the blown diffuser with every race. We may even see a Shark fin concept, point is, its a clean slate. The W01 can only go so far before any more developments become a wast e of resource and time.

[marcush.]

Solving this years tyres will mean nothing for 2011.

The tyres arent working because of the flaw in the chassis. This cannot be changed.
I have said it before and I will continue to repeat my belief that working to solve this years problems has no constuctive end product for next year.

They messed up the weight distribution, in somthing as intricate in an F1 car, this is nigh on impossible to remedy with balast or wheelbase change, without have an adverse effect on the car.

Bin this year, and get the W02 concepts up and running. We already have a mandatory weight distribution for next year(pushed hard by Brawn)and they are learning avbout the blown diffuser with every race. We may even see a Shark fin concept, point is, its a clean slate. The W01 can only go so far before any more developments become a wast e of resource and time.

You will not be able to put a number under the equation and put it into next years
calculations ,YES
But being unable to understand the tyres from the same manufacturer you have received tyres the year or years before (the rear tyre construction was not new),I
cannot see how they are able to understand a new Supplier any better.
This tire has surely other characteristics and other quirks maybe in totally different areas ,but for sure I have no confidence in their ability to fully adapt to a new tire situation ,when they obviously struggle with a KNOWN situation with no real solution.
I think the logic of :screw this ,next year we start afresh ...is not very productive you have to know what went wrong and why and prove it...wwe have heard from them a lot of reasons for them not performing and we have heard and seen what they did to resolve the problem ,but they did not succeed.So how can you be sure they know now?

[aral]

I think they have already reached this phase Marcush.

The thing is, in front of Mercedes home fans they have to be seen to still give a monkeys about this years championship.
They are already developing and learning things that they will be able to implement next year with the exhaust blown diffuser.

Apart from the obvious aero developments there is not alot else Mercedes can actually experiment with.
The car is flawed weight and aero wise, and learning anything from this years tyres will mean nothing when Pirelli beome the suppliers next year.

I would assume Brawn has already given his team the green light to start looking at solutions for next year. Of course they wont acknowledge that, as it admission of failure but I would be very very surprised if there was no firm solutions on the drawing board at Brackley regards the W02, or as I prefer to say, the first PROPER Mercedes

I really believe Merc needs to solve the riddle with the 2010 tyres to go into next season with confidence.
They sort of wished themselves through the second half of 2009 ,sometimes it worked more often it did not ...and only becuase Button had that huge cushion and
kept his head when things did not go smoothly anymore they suceeded...
But this year they seem to be complete at loss how to get on top of their issues.
start afresh without knowin axactly why you did not win ..how can you be sure that you will not have the basic flaw already in your brain and are already starting to implement it in 2011s machine?
remember they told a lot of stories what the real problem was ...if that was not just political statements but what they thoght was their problem ...I would say :
they have no clue what does hold them back really..it could be even two drivers missing 6tenths then.

about heat on carbonfibre parts:we don´t know what resin system they use..so it is not easy to state it will stand up to this or that temp.
typical resinsystems for carbonfibre chassis /structural parts:
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/D107 ... 5_4_eu.pdf
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/D8F0 ... M48_eu.pdf
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/423B ... 200_eu.pdf
http://www.hexcel.com/NR/rdonlyres/F141 ... 655_us.pdf

so I´d say at a temperature of around 230°C a limit is reached ...I´m pretty sure the exhaust gas exit temp is quite a bit more than this. ...so you will need something else to take the heat and not have it propagate into the carbon....the
parts will of course show effects of this abuse..

I fully agree, Marcush. Brawn/Merc were supplied with exactly the same info as all the other teams. AND they already had experience of the tyres. To say they did not understand the tyres, is to say that their engineers and designers were not as capable as those in other teams. AS regards next year, the team will be provided with the same info as other teams, so I wonder if their designers will be able to interpret the info any better!

Re the "distortion" of carbon fibre. This product comes pre impregnated with resin, and the resin is fairly standardised. When ordering the product, Merc would be aware of the temperatures involved, and surely would not be stupid enough to under specify? Other teams don't seem to suffer any problem, so why would it just be Merc?

A wavy floor was given as an excuse by another poster, but there has been no reference to it other than that posters theory, which doesn't hold water!

[marcush.]

please don´t misunderstand me ,I would not want to talk them down ,but i see a lot of holes already shot into their theories this season and just fear they are talking themselves into something like : with a new start from a clean sheet of paper all the bad mojo will disappear.. it will not ...and if it will ...who says it won´t come back? ...it happened last year ...it can happen again.
As Schumacher said ,this is so attractive to him BECAUSE it is so difficult ,becuase you can´t be on top of everything at all times. But you have to be able to define the most important cornerstones and how and where you have to put in those goalposts to be able to be in front on every weekend,no excuses.
to me they lack a major part in their expertise ...
it is obvious that their updates are coming underdevelopped and do not really match reality/expectations -question here is :too much promised or false predictions?
it is fact to me they are one of those teams that fail to adapt the car over the course of a weekend to the changing condtions ,something REDBULL and Mclaren are much better at .
This may be a function of the car being a lot more sensitive to chnages in tracktemp or rubberbuildup or whathaveyou but when did they last come out of a raceweekend telling :thats what the car was worth we have extracted all that was in the package ...its always excuses and explanations just why it did not happen.

And for the warping floor : Schumacher was telling the RTL guys about it ...so at least he thinks it was a reason for not performing in Q

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush,

what will they learn with a flawed chassis?

This is my point. Anything learned through a flawed chassis will mean they learn the square root of didley squat(nothing) for next year.

[vealio]

The last half of the season might be painful to watch. At the moment I can only see Budapest and Singapore that could do the car a favour and deliver a good result. All other track have either many fast turns or long straight, or at worst - both.

[marcush.]

Marcush,

what will they learn with a flawed chassis?

This is my point. Anything learned through a flawed chassis will mean they learn the square root of didley squat(nothing) for next year.

The word flawed chassi is what is itching me....what might be that flaw causing this sort of trouble? It is a carbon tube basically as everyone else has.
Macs have a very long one ,Renault have a very short one...
RBR,Ferrari,Sauber,Williams,Mercedes tororosso , Virgin and HRT have adopted a v shaped tub crossection with elevated steering ,Mclaren and Renault have the steering low ,Lotus the single car with a steeringmount as high as the upper wishbones...
I simply fail to understand just why this car should not have any strength ..renault has strong tracks and so does MACS ,but the benz seems to struggle no matter what you have on offer:barcelona,Hockenheim montecarlo,Canada ,Australia... were did they shine? it is too easy to say ...the thing is crap ,get over it and start afresh.
Last years Mac ,that was a crap car ...it had everything you would not want,wrong weight distribution ,,crap aero,overweight ,you name it.And they won races ,well Hamilton won races...

[raymondu999]

I wonder if the v-ridges on the Merc rear wing are so that it can develop the passive system for use next year. It's my understanding that a passive system is still legal, just not a driver-controlled one.