2025 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Venturiation]

Russell's qualifying pace is extremely strong, his racecraft is not top-level. Hamilton is known for good racecraft and that is why they left for the race with a big gap but came to the finish line almost together.

So if Hamilton qualifies 10th, Russell qualifies 5th, and in the race, Hamilton goes from 10th to 5th, then Russell should go from 5th to 1st?

The car has only a set amount of pace, so it is not strange that they'll both finish close together. Russell isn't at fault in this case, Hamilton is (for qualifying poor).

Russell has worse race pace, if he was even close to hamilton he would keep the same gap since the start of the race,
You can put Hamilton 15th and Russell 1st they will finish together P5 and P4

[Jurgen von Diaz]

Russell's qualifying pace is extremely strong, his racecraft is not top-level. Hamilton is known for good racecraft and that is why they left for the race with a big gap but came to the finish line almost together.

So if Hamilton qualifies 10th, Russell qualifies 5th, and in the race, Hamilton goes from 10th to 5th, then Russell should go from 5th to 1st?

The car has only a set amount of pace, so it is not strange that they'll both finish close together. Russell isn't at fault in this case, Hamilton is (for qualifying poor).

I just don't buy it that Russell would have extremely strong quali and race pace. If so, he would already be better than Verstappen. I think overall Russell was already better than Hamilton because of his quali pace which helped him ahead of Hamilton many times in the race. The finish line matters, not your starting grid position.

[Mosin123]

Russell's qualifying pace is extremely strong, his racecraft is not top-level. Hamilton is known for good racecraft and that is why they left for the race with a big gap but came to the finish line almost together.

Not very often i agree with Jurgen ( might even be the first time? ), but this is spot on.

In 3 years the team were experimenting with both drivers doing "Tortoise and Hare" type strategies and set ups.
We have numerous quotes from both drivers and team staff. Experimenting.
There were occasions like Spa for Russell, or Monza for Hamilton were one flipped the other. I don't think we've seen the best of Russell or Hamilton's "racecraft" in those three years as a result of the team trying out new ideas.
With a hopefully more predictable and less peaky platform in the W16, we will get a better idea of Russell.

Spa for GR? was he not DQ'ed for a none regulation compliant car? you cant include that in any debate, his car was not compliant.. 1.5 KG's in f1 is an awful lot, i wont even get into the other details of that race, we all know what happened and how Merc tried to hand the victory to GR..... the DQ was just Karma.

GR race pace is questionable, it certainly isnt extremely good, if it is, then LH race pace is legendary.

But this is all way off topic.

GR is a great qualifier, his race pace is not quite up with some of the other drivers on the grid.

[Quantum]

Spa for GR? was he not DQ'ed for a none regulation compliant car? you cant include that in any debate, his car was not compliant.. 1.5 KG's in f1 is an awful lot, i wont even get into the other details of that race, we all know what happened and how Merc tried to hand the victory to GR..... the DQ was just Karma.

GR race pace is questionable, it certainly isnt extremely good, if it is, then LH race pace is legendary.

But this is all way off topic.

GR is a great qualifier, his race pace is not quite up with some of the other drivers on the grid.

What's the DQ got to do with Russell's racecraft?
Hamilton got loads of plaudits for his racecraft in the USGP of 2023. He too was DQ'd.
Karma/Conspiracy/We all know what happened/Merc tried/ to ying yang contextualisation is redundant there unsurprisingly.
There's literally no need for that type of rhetoric. Just a team pushing the limit of what it had at the most opportune time. Which is why I included that example in my racecraft comment. Let's keep it 2025 then.

I also feel that if the platform is more stable and deviation between driver set up experiments is kept to a minimum,
Russell could flourish as team leader. The W16 could genuinely be 2nd or 3rd fastest car and racecraft assessments can be made far more reliably.
The key to that, is just how good is Antonelli.
If the car has a wider set up window the margin for error will be wider. That will suit Antonelli as he wont be as severely punished by pushing the limits of set up.
He could then start mounting challenges to Russell from within the team strategically, just as Russell did with Hamilton.

But if Russell keeps his neck in front, we could see him flourish.

[SB15]

and here we go again... discussing Lewis Hamilton and 2021 safety-car-gate, in this thread ; even when he is no longer part of the team.
TBH, sick of this topic, guys.
Discuss Russel and Antonelli instead, if there is nothing else other than drivers to talk about.

Nail on the head. ^^^^

Guys.. drop the yin yang please. It's not for this thread and the bickering is excessive.

Hamilton is not even on the team anymore and yet these guys still having this debate over Russell's significance. Like do you all get this bored that bickering about "Who the faster driver is" entertain yourselves just because? It shows me how on "Thin-Ice" the F1 community is. When are these guys going to realize that Antonelli is who they're going to compare George with this season? Who I think should be watched very closely from, I don't know, everyone!

[SB15]

Russell's qualifying pace is extremely strong, his racecraft is not top-level. Hamilton is known for good racecraft and that is why they left for the race with a big gap but came to the finish line almost together.

So if Hamilton qualifies 10th, Russell qualifies 5th, and in the race, Hamilton goes from 10th to 5th, then Russell should go from 5th to 1st?

The car has only a set amount of pace, so it is not strange that they'll both finish close together. Russell isn't at fault in this case, Hamilton is (for qualifying poor).

I just don't buy it that Russell would have extremely strong quali and race pace. If so, he would already be better than Verstappen. I think overall Russell was already better than Hamilton because of his quali pace which helped him ahead of Hamilton many times in the race. The finish line matters, not your starting grid position.

If you want to debate about Hamilton and his current pace, the 2025 Scuderia Ferrari thread is open to you.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

So if Hamilton qualifies 10th, Russell qualifies 5th, and in the race, Hamilton goes from 10th to 5th, then Russell should go from 5th to 1st?

The car has only a set amount of pace, so it is not strange that they'll both finish close together. Russell isn't at fault in this case, Hamilton is (for qualifying poor).

I just don't buy it that Russell would have extremely strong quali and race pace. If so, he would already be better than Verstappen. I think overall Russell was already better than Hamilton because of his quali pace which helped him ahead of Hamilton many times in the race. The finish line matters, not your starting grid position.

If you want to debate about Hamilton and his current pace, the 2025 Scuderia Ferrari thread is open to you.

Hamilton in the Merc or not, it has been forbidden to talk about him in terms of measuring. It's hard to talk about Hamilton's pace at Ferrari when he hasn't raced a single race yet. And Russell's pace cannot yet be measured against Antonelli's. So let's just be quiet on winter breaks.

[SB15]

I just don't buy it that Russell would have extremely strong quali and race pace. If so, he would already be better than Verstappen. I think overall Russell was already better than Hamilton because of his quali pace which helped him ahead of Hamilton many times in the race. The finish line matters, not your starting grid position.

If you want to debate about Hamilton and his current pace, the 2025 Scuderia Ferrari thread is open to you.

Hamilton in the Merc or not, it has been forbidden to talk about him in terms of measuring. It's hard to talk about Hamilton's pace at Ferrari when he hasn't raced a single race yet. And Russell's pace cannot yet be measured against Antonelli's. So let's just be quiet on winter breaks.

Exactly what I was implying, wait until the first race before drawing any type of conclusion on how the season may go. Something a lot of F1 pundits don't want to do.

[Mostlyeels]

I also feel that if the platform is more stable and deviation between driver set up experiments is kept to a minimum,
Russell could flourish as team leader. The W16 could genuinely be 2nd or 3rd fastest car and racecraft assessments can be made far more reliably.
The key to that, is just how good is Antonelli.
If the car has a wider set up window the margin for error will be wider. That will suit Antonelli as he wont be as severely punished by pushing the limits of set up.
He could then start mounting challenges to Russell from within the team strategically, just as Russell did with Hamilton.

But if Russell keeps his neck in front, we could see him flourish.

I'm hoping Antonelli got all the nerves out of his system last year, and we get to see him produce some fast quali laps without binning it. Russell should have the upper hand in race pace for a while, but I'm very much looking forward to seeing if Antonelli can bring something special to the race later on in the year.

[Mattchu]

Give it a rest, the mod asked you nicely to stick to the 2025 team yet the same old stuff is being brought up!

2025 should be an intriguing season for Mercedes, for me they look to have taken the biggest jump out of all the teams this year with regards to how the car handles. I know it was only testing, but the car looked to have a decent front end without the last few years totally unpredictable rear. Maybe that was the cooler temperatures but you`d hope they`ve widended the operating window quite a bit!
As we know, a confident driver is a fast driver (normally), they could well surprise a few this year...

[TeamKoolGreen]

Russell's qualifying pace is extremely strong, his racecraft is not top-level. Hamilton is known for good racecraft and that is why they left for the race with a big gap but came to the finish line almost together.

So if Hamilton qualifies 10th, Russell qualifies 5th, and in the race, Hamilton goes from 10th to 5th, then Russell should go from 5th to 1st?

The car has only a set amount of pace, so it is not strange that they'll both finish close together. Russell isn't at fault in this case, Hamilton is (for qualifying poor).

Russell has worse race pace, if he was even close to hamilton he would keep the same gap since the start of the race,
You can put Hamilton 15th and Russell 1st they will finish together P5 and P4

Why are ppl still discussing this. The actual data showed Russell had better race pace than hamilton in 2024. In 2 of the instances where hamilton out qualified Russell , Russell finished ahead of him.

Since 2022, it didn't matter which Mercedes started further back , they always finished close to each other. Russell did it just as many times as hamilton did.

[TeamKoolGreen]

I also feel
If the car am strategically, just as Russell did with Hamilton.

But if Russell keeps his neck in front, we could see him flourish.

Russell should have the upper hand in race pace for a while, but I'm very much looking forward to seeing if Antonelli can bring something special to the race later on in the year.

So you are carrying over these leading questions about Russells race pace to Antonelli era.

Let me just say on the outset , Russell has no race pace issues at all. There's no data to back it up. And the finishing places between him and hamilton is not evidence either because anytime Russell qualified way behind hamilton, he finished on his rear bumper most of the time too.

A big part of the reason why Mercedes finished 2nd in 2023 was because of Russells recovery drives. I don't even remember once , Russell being stuck in a DRS train. He is always moving forward.

[Mostlyeels]

I also feel
If the car am strategically, just as Russell did with Hamilton.

But if Russell keeps his neck in front, we could see him flourish.

Russell should have the upper hand in race pace for a while, but I'm very much looking forward to seeing if Antonelli can bring something special to the race later on in the year.

So you are carrying over these leading questions about Russells race pace to Antonelli era.

Let me just say on the outset , Russell has no race pace issues at all. There's no data to back it up. And the finishing places between him and hamilton is not evidence either because anytime Russell qualified way behind hamilton, he finished on his rear bumper most of the time too.

A big part of the reason why Mercedes finished 2nd in 2023 was because of Russells recovery drives

No, I am saying that rookies often have good quali pace, because that is the easiest for a fast driver in a complex car to get first. But getting good race pace relies on experience of driving the car through a season or two.

I am not making any comparisons between Russell and previous drivers in the team. Only making a comment about how rookie drivers improve over a season or two i.e. it's a comment about drivers in general, and these two 2025 drivers in particular.

[OverheatedTurbo]

We haven’t seen RUS perform with a consistent car that has no rear axle overheating issues. When the car is decent, he has performed well like in Vegas and to an extent, SPA.

[SB15]

We haven’t seen RUS perform with a consistent car that has no rear axle overheating issues. When the car is decent, he has performed well like in Vegas and to an extent, SPA.

Well the car will ironically will be geared more towards Antonelli's driving style since him and Bottas (Who's also developing the car) prefers natural understeer, and I said ironically because that's something Lewis wanted for the
past 2 years.